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Thread: The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO

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  1. #1
    Banned Edward Horton's Avatar
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    The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO

    A little info that some people might find interesting that is not over exaggerated or based on urban myth.




    The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO

    http://home.comcast.net/~ehorton/The...d 762 NATO.pdf


    Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?
    What about 7.62 in a 308?
    By Jim Bullock

    http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm

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    Welcome back Ed.
    I’ll be honest I don’t know what to think here. This looks exactly like the kind of post that earned you your little holiday. Those posts disrupted this forum and in honesty I’m not sure they fit the scope of a collector oriented website. If this were say a competitive shooting site I feel the content would be more relevant. Yes we have many collectors who also shoot their 7.62mm NATO chambered Enfields BUT the information as presented has been confusing to the point of being useless because of the arguing and combative nature of the posts. Even the information from the link you posted isn’t from an expert.
    OK here is how we are going to handle this. The .308W vs. 7.62mm issue has grown to the point of being an urban legend and left many shooters confused and wondering if their rifle is safe to shoot. Unfortunately the internet has only added to the confusion and I don’t want this site to be part of the problem. If someone wishes to post below me in this thread I will expect empirical data as related by experts. I will not accept cut and past copies of what looks like home made charts from other un-named websites with no references to their source. To be a credible expert I would have to say someone would have to be ether in the field of munitions testing or some kind of proof house. If you feel you can meet these criteria please feel free to post here but be forewarned I will not allow this to degrade into a battle of personalities. If you have an ax to grind find your self another stone as I will not put up with it.
    Additionally it might be a good idea to reread the forum rules to avoid misunderstandings.
    Last edited by No4Mk1(T); 07-29-2009 at 11:59 PM. Reason: spelling

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  6. #3
    Banned Edward Horton's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    No4Mk1(T)

    If you take the time to look in Badgers “Lee Enfield On-line Knowledge Librariesicon” (Index of Articles) you will see that 90% of the Enfield books and Manuals were donated by me and this includes the books by E.G.B. Reynolds and Jim Sweet.

    The information posted here on the .308 and 7.62 is the most accurate anywhere on the internet and it is free of guesswork, rumors or bovine scat. The information posted here does come from munitions testing and proof houses (see table on page 5 of The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO) Also read what the expert Jim Bullock has to say in his article “Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?”.

    I collect Enfield rifles, Enfield military manuals and technical information, and any printed matter I can find related to the Enfield rifle, I do not collect rumors or myths. If my information is wrong or incorrect then prove it is wrong and do not suggest that it is just another internet rumor or guesswork.

    Jim Bullock

    About the author:

    Jim Bullock is the grandson and son of rifle shooting competitors. Jim started with a BB gun (a daisy pump) in 1950 and received his first .22 at age 10.

    He has represented Canada twelve times as a member of the Canadianicon rifle Team as a shooter, Coach and Team Captain.

    His fullbore rifle shooting started in 1960 using the Lee Enfield #4 in 303 caliber in what was known as Service Rifle (B). That was a well-tuned rifle with a Parker Hale 5C rear sight and the standard post front sight. SR (B) was deliberate (no snap, or rapid fire) at 200 to 1,000 yards. His best shot was a pair of bullseyes fired at 1,000 yards with a 26 minute wind change between shots (that is about 260 inches or about 21 feet of windchange).

    He has an extensive firearm collection including a dozen or so Lee Enfields.

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    Mr. Horton, you are a wonderful fount of knowledges ancient and obscure, and have a fine analytical mind, generally I enjoy your sharing with us, BUT I'm afraid you are also about the thinnest skinned bulldog I've ever run across! Please don't let some others get going 'cuz things quicky get tedious.

    Sorry to air this laundry publicly, I just want to enjoy your inputs in the future!

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    Advisory Panel Son's Avatar
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    Welcome back Mr Horton and as usuall, thankyou for another very informative posting. Being very new to the use of 7.62/ 308 (other than in MAG58's etc.) I re-read most of the available data you had posted prior so I could be sure not to damage the very rare and collectable rifle I bought a little while back (posting about it graciously permitted here, lower down the page). I wasn't keen on the idea of using surplus military ammunition, prefering to handload with premium quality components available for the .308Win calibre. From your info and input from other experienced fullbore shooters, I was confident to proceede knowing my hefty investment wasn't at risk.

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    Senior Member Lithy's Avatar
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    Mate! Give them the documentation and let THEM decide.

    We sorted the exploding coachwood theory, now do the same in a similar manner with 7.62 conversions.

    Stop entering into, or starting arguements with idiots.

    The internet is 99.5% BS. The people that subscribe to it as Gospel are fools.

    The worst that can happen is that the general public will be so concerned with buying a 7.62 LE in the fear that it will explode in their face, is that it will drive the price down.

    Good to see you back, now just chill down a little

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    Thread Starter
    To all

    I’m not hot under the collar but I do not understand the reaction to posting the most accurate information on the subject of the .308 and 7.62 I can find. I have spent years looking for Enfield manuals and information to share with others and the moderators reaction here puzzles me. (Posting cartridge pressure levels should not be this painful)

    We have collectors and shooters in our forums and my main interest has always been the care and feeding of the Enfield rifle. If you gain anything from this posting you should note that factory ammunition (.303 and .308) is downloaded to lower pressure levels than it is actually rated for. This is one of the reasons why .303 SAAMI American factory cases do not last long when reloaded and fired in the Enfield rifle compared to Greek HXP cases. (Our American .303 cases are designed for lower chamber pressures to avoid lawsuits)


    Below is an example of this from the Speer reloading manual on the 8mm, American .303 Britishicon ammunition is loaded to pressures below 43,000 CUP.

    “Part of the interest in handloading the 8mm Mauser can be traced to the low power of U.S. factory ammunition. Because of industry concerns over shooters using S-type ammunition in the weaker (and tight-bored) Model 1888 action, the industry pressure limit is set very low-37,000 CUP. As a result, the performance of American 8mm Mauser factory ammo is rather disappointing-not much better than a 30-30. European ammunition is loaded to higher limits allowing the true nature of the cartridge to be experienced. Speer pressure-tested some surplus 8x57mm Turkish military ammunition and it was loaded to 50,000 CUP. Handloaded to higher pressures, the 8mm Mauser is close to the 308 Winchester in power and is suitable for most North Ameri- can game except the great bears.”

    No4Mk1(T)

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    Last edited by Edward Horton; 07-30-2009 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Horton View Post
    Are people chastised and banned for posting really bad jokes ?

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    Two things to remember:

    1. The triangle with the exclamation mark at the top right is where you should report a post that you feel is inapropriate or breaks the rules.

    2. There are two forums hosted on the same server that relate to Lee Enfields.
    They are managed by different groups of moderators following similar guidelines but there are differences. For the CSP site refer to this post:

    Military Surplus Collectors Forums - Announcements in Forum : SMLE (Lee Enfield)

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    Really Senior Member ireload2's Avatar
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    Do you have anything from an original authority that substantiates the statement highlighted in red?

    What is your rationale for quoting Speer about the 8X57 & the 1888 Commission rifle? I can provide readily available information that contradicts part of the Speer quote about the bore sizes and the so called weakness of the 1888 Germanicon rifle.
    The 8X57 information has nothing to do with the .303 Britishicon or Lee-Enfields and it is not entirely accurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Horton View Post
    To all

    I’m not hot under the collar but I do not understand the reaction to posting the most accurate information on the subject of the .308 and 7.62 I can find. I have spent years looking for Enfield manuals and information to share with others and the moderators reaction here puzzles me. (Posting cartridge pressure levels should not be this painful)

    We have collectors and shooters in our forums and my main interest has always been the care and feeding of the Enfield rifle. If you gain anything from this posting you should note that factory ammunition (.303 and .308) is downloaded to lower pressure levels than it is actually rated for. This is one of the reasons why .303 SAAMI American factory cases do not last long when reloaded and fired in the Enfield rifle compared to Greek HXP cases. (Our American .303 cases are designed for lower chamber pressures to avoid lawsuits)


    Below is an example of this from the Speer reloading manual on the 8mm, American .303 British ammunition is loaded to pressures below 43,000 CUP.

    “Part of the interest in handloading the 8mm Mauser can be traced to the low power of U.S. factory ammunition. Because of industry concerns over shooters using S-type ammunition in the weaker (and tight-bored) Model 1888 action, the industry pressure limit is set very low-37,000 CUP. As a result, the performance of American 8mm Mauser factory ammo is rather disappointing-not much better than a 30-30. European ammunition is loaded to higher limits allowing the true nature of the cartridge to be experienced. Speer pressure-tested some surplus 8x57mm Turkish military ammunition and it was loaded to 50,000 CUP. Handloaded to higher pressures, the 8mm Mauser is close to the 308 Winchester in power and is suitable for most North Ameri- can game except the great bears.”

    No4Mk1(T)

    Are people chastised and banned for posting really bad jokes ?

    Click and read below

    For a good laugh - Military Surplus Collectors Forums
    Last edited by ireload2; 07-30-2009 at 03:06 PM.

  14. #10
    Banned Edward Horton's Avatar
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    Amatikuluicon

    Why is a moderator from a different forum crossing over and addressing a comment I made to No4Mk1(T)? You made no such comments to this same posting at the Joustericon CSP Forum where you are a moderator, are these two forums any different when it comes to subject matter?

    My tung and cheek humor here is very simple, if a moderator doesn’t make any comments about jokes made by John Sukey in a Enfield collectors forum why are comments being made here by a moderator on the chamber pressures for the .308 and 7.62 in my thread?

    Please take your time answering these questions and remember I have never criticized the Enfield rifle in any fashion and all I’m doing here is furnishing information on the Enfield rifle that I view in the same category as the Enfield books and manuals I have furnished to this forum in the past.

    Or is the information I provide to these forums now considered worthless to collectors and shooters alike?

    Below, modern headspace settings for the Enfield rifle for ammunition that is only be shot once and not reloaded.


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