Question about possible Japanese Type 38 Carbine

[tokey]

Hello,

I am still relatively new to collecting WWII Firearms, but being of Japanese decent, I have been interested in picking up WWII Japanese firearms when I come across them. They are pretty few and far between here in my neck of the woods, but I found one today at a local shop.

Because I am learning as I go, I took a look at it, then came back and hit the Internet to learn more about what I saw. I was told at the shop that it was a Japanese Paratrooper rifle, but my initial investigations make me believe that it is just a bubba'd rifle.

The barrel is short, so it seems to be a Type 38 Carbine. Stupidly, I forgot to check the Type markings, but based on what I saw, I am pretty sure it is a Type 38. The wood was sporterized, as it was cut near the end and rounded off, and is missing the last barrel band. Also, the bolt handle is bent, which seems very strange, since every bolt handle I have seen on Japanese rifles are straight, unless they are sniper bolts, but the snipers seem to have long bent bolt handles. This bolt handle seemed too short to be a sniper.

Also, the butt of the stock is cut to allow for a sling, which is something I have not seen on Japanese rifles before either.

Anyway, I am going back tomorrow to the shop to get more information about it, and look at the markings a little more carefully, but I am still very new to all of this, so I thought I should post and see if anyone could help me out with initial impressions. Sound like a bubba'd rifle?

Thanks!

Information

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[Jean]

Sounds like a Post-War Siamese Police carbine conversion.

Follow link: http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/thai1.html

[Badger]

Welcome to the site tokey....

I assume you've gone through the Japan - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here) and checked out what you saw against the examples there?

Also, I know we have at least two knowledgeable collectors in the Japanese rifles on here, claven2 and riceone.

If they don't see this thread, you may want to drop them a PM (or an email if their site options permit it) to see if they can help you out further.

Finally, see if the local store owner will let you take a few digital pics for us to view. Tell him you want to compare markings etc., against library research material you can't bring to the store.

Regards,
Badger

[tokey]

Thanks for the welcome, Badger! I most definitely went through the Japan library, and that is why I am confused about this rifle, as it doesn't seem to fit in any of the categories there.

Thanks, I will PM them if they do not see this, but right now, I am thinking that soldat is right, and it is a siamese conversion...

[tokey]

Oh, one more question for anyone in the know...this shop had not decided yet what they are going to put the rifle up for...but if it is a siamese conversion, any idea on what good value for it would be?

The store is still under the impression that it is a paratrooper rifle, so I suspect they are going to make it a little pricey...

[Skippy]

Oh, one more question for anyone in the know...this shop had not decided yet what they are going to put the rifle up for...but if it is a siamese conversion, any idea on what good value for it would be?

The store is still under the impression that it is a paratrooper rifle, so I suspect they are going to make it a little pricey...

If it is a siamese conversion GRAB IT FOR CHRISTS SAKE!
There were less than 2500 rifles converted in total, even with the bent bolt, if you found a replacement it'd be worth your while.
The sling cut and sporterization are legitimate, but there should be a band at the front of the stock. It is basially a shortened Type 38 rifle made to mimic the feel and look of the US M1 Carbine which they prefered, but which were in low supply. They called it a Type 91.

You'd be lucky if it is an actual police carbine, as only 1000 or so were issued to them. Anything with a serial number higher is likley a Siamese army carbine. The Siamese serial number is in some script on the reciever ring, but there will also be the japanese serial number on the side of the receiver. You'll be able to tell if it's a police or paratroop conversion based on the siamese armoury stamp that takes the place of the imperial mum, if you can get a picture for me I can tell you which, unfortunatly I dont have an online example to show.

THe police one is a circular shield, with a katana behind it, the hilt showing at the top left, and the point of the blade at the bottom right. Think of a no-smoking sign.

The army carbines (which may have been issued to paratroops as well, but definatly not exclusively) have a different stamp, which kind of looks like a flaming circular sun.

Just for reference, here's mine. The only other one I've heard of in Canada.

Officially, a Royal Thai Police Type 91 Carbine (Thailand is post-war Siam). THis particular one is the lowest existing serial number on record:









This one will be in the Japan MKL for proper reference as soon as my old man returns with the digicam.

[Stevo]

Skippy,
How does that Type 91 shoot? It looks like it would be a very handy little carbine.

[tokey]

Alright, I went back to the shop today to look at the piece, armed with my new found information. This is definitely a Siamese conversion, and it has the circle with the Katana, so it is a police one. I am waiting for them to set a price for it still...any ideas on what is reasonable price-wise for this?

[Claven2]

I agree. It's a Siamese/thai police carbine.

As for price, ther market is small despite the rarity as they aren't really core Japanese items and not alot of guys collect siamese weapons. Arisaka collectors may or may not be interested.

I'd expect it to be priced less than $400 in virtually every market. In some cases, MUCH less.

It has NOTHING to do with Paratroopers.

[Skippy]

Claven's probably right price-wise.
These are valued highly only by a few hardcore collectors, hence why there is still so little mainstream information.