german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

[Alan de Enfield]

Numrich sell the stamps and their eagle is looking over its right shoulder :

Numrich Gun Parts Corp. - The World's Largest Supplier of Firearms Parts and Accessories


Hand Stamp, German Nazi Eagle - Use On Metal Wood Or Leather Surfaces.


On the MG42 forum they are discussing them as well :

"Look at the pretty Numrich Birdies ! !

Of course there are stamps that people use to make fraudulent k98 rifles. One of the collectors on gunboards.com has a huge collection of the stamps he got from Europe. He does not hump rifles with them, he just collects the stamps (and rifles too). the Numrich stamps are far enough away from the original that they can be spotted by an experienced k98 collector."

[bearhunter]

Alan de Enfield, that isn't even close to being the same stamp on the OPs rifle. One of the mods here, just got his pee pee smacked by the original owner of the rifle in question, on CGN. I'm surprised, he isn't chiming in here. I suggest you send your links to him on CGN and see what he says and when he aquired the rifle. He has records that go back many years and are federally documented. This rifle is in his personal collection and came from several thousand, he purchased from a warehouse in Europe.
This whole scenario is turning into a ****ing contest. It may have destroyed the value of a credible relic as well. IMHO, the rifle and stamps are legitimate. That is only my humble opinion though. If I could afford that rifle, I would own it, no questions asked, especially, knowing the seller.

[bigduke6]

But so far, nobody has ever seen an officially stamped backward facing eagle thinggy or cack handed swastika. And so far, again, no one has been able to give an explanation for such a beast on the rifle. Until those queries are answered, then all of the other points to ponder are simply red herrings thrown in to confuse.

But brilliant photos KG. Can anyone identify the slings or indeed the period/year from the uniforms

The Tunic is the Flying Blouse (Fliegerbluse) dated around 1940, was issued to flying personnel only, but became popular throughout the Luftwaffe, think this is the second issue, as the first had no pockets or national emblem.

[Claven2]

Bearhunter - too much faith is being placed in who the dealer was. This, IMHO, is tomfoolery. Dealers are subject to the same ill-advised purchases as we are and despite this dealer's rep, no-one can say he has never been sold a faked rifle. LOTS of faked nazi guns have come from Yugoslavia - on pallets and otherwise.

To date, on the CGN thread, nothing the dealer has said aside from typing in capital letters has changed any of the facts already known about the TWO rifles in question (the other is an M44). Similar stories, same lack of proof of legitimacy.

buy the rifle, not the story - regardless of who the dealer is. If you ignore the identity of the seller, do you still believe this rifle is real? That is what you SHOULD be asking yourself. You know I personally believe it to be a fiction piece, and you are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.

[Brit plumber]

How much more money over a standard rifle is it? I actually like the look of the rifle even it didn't have the stamps. My German captured Bren was actually less cost than a normaly priced Bren, It came from a big surplus dealer who gave me the option of one of 3 he had for sale. I picked it purely on the fact that it was a Inglis Intermediate gun, and only found the Eagle when I cleaned it. I only found one eagle but there are signs of some scrubbing to the body where other marks may have been.

All in all, I bet this rifle becomes a well documented weapon.

[Claven2]

It was sold to the OP for $1000 based upon the price on the dealer's website. No idea if the actual price was negotiated down or not.

[Peter Laidler]

Bearhunter, I and the remainder of the doubting forumers know what you're saying but the facts remain that to date we have no proof of a backwards facing genuine eagle and a cack handed swastika thinggy. Not ever, on any bit of German kit. I have to freely admit that what I know about German kit or even Germany could be written on the back of a postage stamp with a biro and there'd STILL be room for the Lords Prayer. But I do know a lot about the Military FTR programmes, especially the UK and Australia. And the notion that these or any other stamps or markings (except the usual FW or BW markings of course.....) would remain is beyond belief

[enfield303t]

I think in my humble opinion the owner's story is extremely important in the case of both of these rifles. Both rifles in question came in a lot purchased for almost scrap value so the markings if put on by the original seller had no value so why would you be so stupid to do that. Also if I have read correctly the M44 was stored in a crate since 1947 and the "commies" were too busy beating their rifles into plowshares to worry about faking anything. Stalin was trying to feed some of his new captives (Poles, Czechs etc) and there was so much crap left from the war that was available and legit no one would waste their time faking anything. To all that immediately yell "FAKE" try to think of this logically, the history as told by the original owner is provable by paperwork, I have nothing but trust on his word as EVERYONE I have ever talked to (and not just about this debacle) say he is completely honest. The next logical question is why would it have been done if the person that did it saw no monetary gain? The real sad part is all the negative comments on both rifles has virtually destroyed any chance of these rifles getting a fair shake by collectors and that is sad and so far neither side has been able to prove their point. Experts are only experts in what they have seen and do you believe ONLY what you have seen? I would like to see the Enfield end up being legit but if it is or isn't my main point is to have everyone think logically before they cry out NEVER.

[villiers]

In contrast to public opinion, German armed forces, once away from their barracks, did not adhere strictly to regulations. Junior officers were encouraged to make their own decisions and other ranks were trained to do the best they could. It is very likely that use was made of a hastily run up, duff stamp on newly captured weapons under conditions on the battlefield. Ex Wehrmacht NCOs I´ve told about this discussion just smile and admit that anything´s likely.

But under present market conditions, collectors want (and pay for) perfectly faked (or sometimes genuine) items and dismiss anything that does not conform to their somewhat vague historical knowledge.

[Son]

After a bit of digging I found several references to Nazi Eagles over Swastikas. It would seem that the eagle looking over the right or left shoulder has indeed got different meanings.

Now, before anyone jumps up and says this information doesn't include weapons, it does include statues and buildings, belt buckles, flags, helmets, daggers, caps... in fact, almost everything the German army wore- but then, it is a uniform site. Don't take my word for it, have a look yourselves. At the link below, open any type of equipment on the list and then look at insignia for the respective units/ departments. You will see that for the National symbol, the eagle faces right and on Nazi party symbols, the eagle faces left.

Axis History Factbook: Uniforms

Here's another link that supports the eagle head direction thingy...

German Nazi Eagle Statues

BTW, which of the original pics of the rifle has the swastika backwards? Two of them aren't clear, but I'd stop short of saying they are definitely backwards...


Here's two pics showing hat badges. The one looking over the right shoulder is Police (National symbol) The one looking over the left is Waffen-SS and SS (Nazi symbol)