New fixer-upper 1891 Carcano Cavalry Carbine

[Aragorn243]

However, and I know that this is not going to be a popular statement but I have to say it. A careful cleaning with soap and water would have removed the dirt from the wood and that really was all it needed. The Citris Strip removed the original varnish and color/stain and that really affected the value of the piece. It caused the value to plunge from the $250 range down to the $160 that you paid for it, so, at least, you came out even. I'm sorry, I know you worked hard on it but.....

No problem, I prefer it cleaned and have no plans to re-sell it anytime soon. That being said, it sat unsold for quite a while in the condition it was in and I have little doubt I could easily get the original starting price for it now. Coloration for these is all over the place from light to dark and this rifle had no varnish on it to begin with, just oil and dirt (and spray paint).

[Harlan (Deceased)]

I think it's one of the best 'Before' and 'Afters' I've ever seen.

I couldn't believe how nice it turned out. Nice work!

[Patrick Chadwick]

Very nice Aragorn 243, and as to the finish - that honey color is just the same as on my "Roma" - the 91/41 parade rifle. Looks much better than the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved! When you have fired off the PRVI-Partisan ammo, get hold of some of the long round-nose Hornady bullets and check how they fit. They should perform better in the reloads than the PRVI spitzers, because of the long cylindrical section.

Patrick

[Aragorn243]

I am looking forward to getting out and shooting it along with a few others I picked up recently. Weather here has just been terrible. Rain nearly every day and the coming weekend not looking much better. I am set up to reload most of the rifles I have but need to pick up some dies for the Carcano.

I must have done ok with the sling because when I put it on, the marks on the wood just below the front sling holder match the "new" sling perfectly. It has no markings that I can find but was advertised as a Carcano sling. It is old, that much is obvious. Whether it's WWII old or not, I can't tell. It is not one of the K98 sling look alikes but a buckle type with no holes other than where the brass pin holds the small end together.

So which one of the following three will kick the worst:

303 Jungle Carbine
M44 Carbine
Carcano Carbine

I figure I'll take these three out when I can go. I've fired the full stocked 303 rifles before with no issues at all but this has a lot of weight removed. Never fired one of the Russians of any size and never fired a Carcano of any type. I would figure that to have the least "kick" to it but it is also smaller and lighter than the other two.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I must have done ok with the sling because when I put it on, the marks on the wood just below the front sling holder match the "new" sling perfectly. It has no markings that I can find but was advertised as a Carcano sling.... a buckle type with no holes other than where the brass pin holds the small end together.

Sounds promising. Could you post a pic of the sling, taking care to show the ends?

And I have fired a 6.5 Carcano carbine belonging that has been "sporterized", thus reducing the weight to 22 plinker level. No problem at all - and it shoots dead on with original ammo. I have suggested to the owner that if he wants to throw it away, he should throw it in my direction!

Patrick

[Aragorn243]

Took photos of the sling. Did not take it completely off the rifle but tried to get everything you asked for. I didn't pay that much for it so if it isn't an original carcano sling it isn't a big deal. I got the clips from the same place. Numbers on the bottoms are not all the same, probably different production lots but I got 5 for $10 which was by far the cheapest I've seen them advertised anywhere.

Sling button:


Sling upper end:


Sling assembled:


Buckle outside:


Buckle inside:


Buckle inside reverse:


Clip bottom:


Clip side:


My three carbines:


As you can see, I'm missing a bayonet on the jungle carbine. Anyone have an extra?

[gew8805]

Very nice Aragorn 243, and as to the finish - that honey color is just the same as on my "Roma" - the 91/41 parade rifle. Looks much better than the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved! When you have fired off the PRVI-Partisan ammo, get hold of some of the long round-nose Hornady bullets and check how they fit. They should perform better in the reloads than the PRVI spitzers, because of the long cylindrical section.

Patrick

Patrick, sorry to hear that you feel that way. I will say that the carbine looks great for what it now is, a refinished military rifle. However, preserving the original finish would have been very easy and much more rewarding historically. Where "the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved!" statement comes from, I am not sure? What was removed was the original stain and varnish applied to the gun when new by the Italian manufacturer for the Italian military. A perfectly acceptable, even desirable finish on a collectible firearm. Now, it is true that Italian arms are found occasionally, as new, with the blond finish where no staining was done to the stock and that this finish may pass as "original" in some less informed circles but it will forever be viewed as improper to the growing discerning collector community - Italian arms are finally getting the respect that they have long deserved.

A much simpler and easier way to get this gun completely back to original condition could have been done one of two ways:

(1) Clean the stock using warm water with a small amount of mild detergent applied with a soft brush, or

(2) Apply Vaseline liberally to the stock and, after a short time, wipe it of with paper towels or a rough cloth. This will easily remove encrusted dirt and oils (including cosmoline) applied over the years, one or two applications will do the job and preserve the original finish and color.

Will the above give a fine modern factory finish? No, they will not but the gun in question here is a common soldier's weapon and, whenever possible, that appearance should be preserved. It was not finished in the way that a civilian sporting arm was then or now.

Aragorn243, allow me to say again, your rifle (carbine) does look nice and you can be happy with it since it is finished to your liking, after all, it is yours - for the time being.

Following is a picture of the only three type slings used by the Italian military.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I got 5 for $10 which was by far the cheapest I've seen them advertised anywhere.

That was indeed a bargain. At that price grab all you can - it will be a good investment!

I am not sure about the sling. I think it may be a cut-down of a long rifle sling. But I am not a sling expert, and I hope someone else has an idea!

Patrick

[Aragorn243]

Patrick,

Sling does not appear to be cut down but it does not match any known Carcano slings I've seen. It fits so it will do for now until something better comes along.

It does look very similar to a Chilean Mauser sling that I have, the buckle portion anyway. For that I believe it would be too short though.

[Aragorn243]

gew8805.

While I do appreciate your efforts to educate me on the Carcano, I believe that having the rifle in my hands makes me a better judge on what is on it finish wise and what is not, and what is grease, dirt, grime and the original finish color than you are from looking at a few photos.

There was no varnish on this rifle which you stated there was, the original finish is the color I obtained after cleaning it. Years of grease, rubbed in oil of any sort and simply sitting in a dirty garage in a humid environment like this rifle looked like it had been all contributed to the color it was in when purchased, I suspect that is the "railroad tie" appearance suggested by Patrick. I've worked with wood nearly my entire life and can recognize abuse or in this case neglect.

I did look at your site and saw some very nice rifles with varnish that in no way looked like the rifle I own either before or after the cleaning process. I have neither seen any rifle on the net of this type in that dark red color. On the other hand, a good 60% of the rifles I did see look exactly like the finished version. And just for reference, no Carcano I've ever seen looked like those at the site you recommended. Most look similar to those you show in your sling type photo.

I'd grade this rifle at about 70% metal finish and a simple military oil finish as purchased and was admittedly very surprised at your appraisal of it's condtion at 90% metal and 100% wood.

I guess what I'm trying to say is judging something from a photo is not as easy as holding it in your hands. The flash and/or lighting can make things look different than they really are and I mentioned that in my post with the photos.

I have since applied about a dozen coats of BLO to this rifle and you can't tell any difference between it and dozens of others that I've looked at other than it is now free of the grime and dirt that had been on it.

Now I understand the thought that some fellows have about the "history" of a given firearm. At the one end are those that really don't care at all and cut down the rifle to make it into something they want, a sporterized version or a bubba depending on your view. The other end has those that don't want anything done to the rifle because somehow they interpret the "history" from the dents, dirt, grime, rust, etc. I fall somewhere in between there I guess. I want to preserve the actual history of the rifle, that being the marks, stampings, etc and keeping the finish as close to the original as possible. I do not consider dirt or grease to be "history", I consider it as either signs of abuse or preservation depending on the type and as my ultimate goal is to have a rifle that I can AFFORD that looks as closely to what it would have looked to the man who carried it during it's period of service. I believe I have succeeded in accomplishing that with this Carcano.

Along that same train of thought, I restored a RC K98 to it's German appearance rather than that of it's Russian refurbishers. In this instance I did indeed remove some history from the rifle, that being the step where it was captured and given a coat of shellac after being rebuilt and reblued. But as the German soldier did not carry this rifle with red shellac, I personally felt compelled to remove it. I did not alter the X on the receiver or the serial number on the stock or the electro penciled serial numbers on the metal so it will forever remain a RC K98 that looks like it should in German hands.

So again, thanks for the advice but I can tell you that I never would have appreciated this rifle the way I do now had I not put the time and effort into restoring it to what I believe it's original condition to have been (within reason). I did not try to make it a new rifle.