Savage Enfield

[kenwest516]

I have a savage #4mk1*serial no 65c9451. It has the square s on about everything the front sight and protector the bolt and the bolt head the butt and the front barrel band.The bolt is also numbers matching. The only thing I don't see it on is the stock and handguard,but I don't know where to look either and the wood all matches. The magazine looks like it has a P on it so I don't think it's original. It don't look like it ever seen much use and has surface rust that looks like it came from poor storage. I have seen savage enfields before but never one with all matching parts. My question is. How often do you see this many original parts. Is it rare or does it happen alot. And any more info you guys want to throw in about it would be greatly appreciated. It is import marked so it definatley spent much of it's life traveling abroad then came home. I bought it at a dunhams near pittsburgh pa on a whim. I was just wondering if I found a rarity or not either way it don't matter my plans are to keep and enjoy it for as long as I can.Just noticed it on the rear sight also.

Information

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[gunner]

I own 2 Savage´s and non of them has all parts matching. So i think it will be rare to get a all parts matching service rifle who has seen action in WW2 for the reason that they have often changed parts to make a working one out of 2 or 3 others.

[Peter Laidler]

What users ought to remember also is that a rifle NEVER went into an Armourers shop because it was OK. It only went in because something was wrong. And Armourers, bless every one of them, would fix it. They didn't concern themselves with matching parts up. They saw it, identified the problem, fixed it and out it went

Been there and done it a zillion times..........

[boristhepig]

Hi
On my No4 Mk1* the butt stock is S marked on the wrist by the rear of the trigger guard, the bottom fore stock is marked close to the nose cap (hard to make out in picture) the top woods as I remember are marked on the inside. Most of the Savage rifles I have seen are marked on the butt stock and assume all would have been marked when they were made.

Lee enfield savage no4 mk1* - a set on Flickr

[Seaspriter]

Fortunately there is enough data in Owner’s Survey from another earlier post in another thread to determine how to link Production Dates to Serial Numbers (within a month’s accuracy)
Here’s the Survey Data:
0C1 - 1941 MKI lowest # 1941 date
0C2804 - 1941 MKI highest # 1941 date

0C3870 - 1942 MKI lowest # 1942 date
13C2752 - 1942 MKI highest MKI # 1942 date

13C2845 - 1942 MKI* lowest MKI* # 1942 date
36C1916 - 1942 MKI* highest MKI* # 1942 date

38C2632 - 1943 lowest MKI* # 1943 date
60C7797 - 1943 highest MKI* # 1943 date

51C7693 - no date lowest MKI* # with no date
0C63110 - no date highest MKI* # with no date
First, the Serial Number is the clue to the Production Volume.
For example, the serial number 96C1106 means the 961,106 gun off the production line.
This information tells us that:
1941 ~ 2,800 units produced, beginning July 22, 1941
1942 ~380,000 units produced
1943 ~445,000 units produced = 36,500 units/month
1944 ~220,000 units produced, ending June 22, 1944
Total Production ~1,028,903 units produced
Assuming 1942 was a ramp-up year, full production was attained by mid 1942, and continued at full production throughout 1943, and then dropped down in the last 2 months of production May-June 1944, we can project these serial numbers connected to these APPROXIMATE dates:
Jan 42 0C3800
Feb 42 1C1500
Mar 42 2C5000
Apr 42 6C4500
May 42 10C0000
Jun 42 13C4500
Jul 42 17C1000
Aug 42 20C7500
Sep 42 24C4000
Oct 42 28C0500
Nov 42 31C7000
Dec 42 35C3500
Jan 43 39C0000
Feb 43 43C6500
Mar 43 46C6500
Apr 43 49C9500
May 43 53C6000
Jun 43 57C2500
Jul 43 60C9000
Aug 43 64C5500
Sept 43 68C2000
Oct 43 72C8500
Nov 43 76C5000
Dec 43 80C0000
Jan 44 84C5000
Feb 44 89C0000
Mar 44 93C5000
Apr 44 97C5000
May44 0C50000
Jun 44 0C63000
Remember these approximations for reference. The data was derived from extrapolation, not Savage Production Data (which seems to be missing).
If anyone knows of better data, please share it with us on this forum. (I’m not a statistician, just used High School Math!)
Hope this helps shed some light on the serial number mystery.
Robert

[Brian Dick]

Savage No.4's with matching factory parts are not that uncommon. I had a batch of 33 if memory serves from South Africa via Interarms n the late 1990's that were all factory original and some near new sans handling marks from storage and unnecessary abuse. There were more from Turkey via Century Arms in the mid 2000's that were pretty much the same except very dry and neglected. Savage made more No.4's that anyone so they aren't particularly rare but all decent No.4's are getting harder to find at this point in time.

[brnom2]

I have recently come into possession on 2 x Savage No4's - A No4Mk1 13C95XX and No4Mk1* 29C68XX - both matching numbers and have all Savaged marked parts - but and forwood, top wood front and rear, bolt heads, barrel bands front and rear, sling swivels, magazine followers, rear sights, front sight blade, front sight protectors etc. Have seen few other Savage No4's here in West Oz that are all marked same. I have noticed though that over last few years majority of spares I've come across,purchased or been given (here in West Aust anyway) seem to be Savaged marked - perhaps a reflection of how many were made?? My other 2 x No4's - both Matby's and both ex range rifles, had acquired a Savage marked part each, in their time before I got them - one has a Savage magazine follower and one has Savage top wood.

[Brian Dick]

Savage supplied tons of spares to the UK as well as complete rifles. It's not uncommon to find factory original ROF Maltby rifles with Savage parts installed.

[Peter Laidler]

Brian is correct. All the excess production, made for or contracted for as spare parts, made by whoever, went to a collecting centre where they were sent the next day, by rail, to the places that needed themn., If the production controller at Maltby could forecast a shortage of, say, sears, he would tell the collecting centre who would ensure that they'd be there PDFQ. Same applied to Ordnance stockpiles. If there was a run on trigger guards, then they'd be wrapped in a 'primary package' according to UoI by a sub-contractor and shipper up to the Ordnance Depot's. And so on.

[Seaforth72]

Features of the earliest Stevens-Savage No.4 Mk. I production rifles.

COCKING PIECE - There is clear evidence from many surviving specimens that the first of the Stevens-Savage No. 4 MK.I rifles had the MK.I cocking piece (aka dome shape or button knob) and that this was later replaced in production by the MK.II cocking piece (slab sided with vertical grooves) which was less time consuming to make.

UPPER BAND - The earliest 1941 No. 4 Mk. I rifles made in the UK and Canada had the first type upper band with the hinge on top. Examples of early Stevens-Savage made upper bands seen by myself and Brian Dick are all of the non-hinged type. The Americans are well known for looking for ways to improve the efficiency of the manufacturing process (that us a compliment by the way). Peter Laidler would likely be the first to point out that a surviving rifle could have any type of No. 4 upper band, depending upon what was in an armourer's parts bin when a rifle was bring repaired or going through Factory Through Repair (FTR).

QUESTIONS:

DID STEVENS-SAVAGE MAKE AND/OR EVER USE THE HINGED UPPER BAND IN PRODUCTION?

DOES ANYONE HAVE A STEVENS-SAVAGE MARKED HINGED UPPER BAND?


FRONT SIGHT GUARD -Stevens-Savage commonly used the MK.II stamped front sight guard which was more cost and time efficient to make than the early MK.I ( what collectors call the wasp waist as made in the UK and Canada) or the later MK.I machined type with vertical slab sides. The late Mr. Charles R. Stratton wrote that the stamped guard MK.II which he called the "Third Variation" (British Enfield Rifles Volume 2 p. 89) was "Approved in April 1943 as a wartime expedient and designated the 'Mk II' ... Is found mainly on Mk. I* rifles. The body is stamped from sheet steel, and each 'ear' has a steel boss brazed into place to stiffen it." I have not found any images of, or references to, a Stevens-Savage 1941 No. 4 MK.I rifle with an MK.I front sight protector (early, wasp shaped), though again Capt. Laidler would likely point out that earlier serviceable parts in for example, a British armourer's parts bin, could be put on. I am wondering if ALL Stevens-Savage No. 4 Were manufactured with the MK.II front sight guard starting in 1941, long before the official approval.
QUESTIONS

WHICH VERSION OF THE FRONT SIGHT GUARD DID STEVENS-SAVAGE USE AT THE START OF THEIR 1941 PRODUCTION?

IF THEY USED EARLIER TYPES, WHICH TYPES AND ROUGHLY AT WHICH SERIAL NUMBER DID THEY MAKE THE CHANGES?

Brian is correct. All the excess production, made for or contracted for as spare parts, made by whoever, went to a collecting centre where they were sent the next day, by rail, to the places that needed themn., If the production controller at Maltby could forecast a shortage of, say, sears, he would tell the collecting centre who would ensure that they'd be there PDFQ. Same applied to Ordnance stockpiles. If there was a run on trigger guards, then they'd be wrapped in a 'primary package' according to UoI by a sub-contractor and shipper up to the Ordnance Depot's. And so on.