ammo question

[ActionYobbo]

I got 26 rounds of ammo that has been made from cbc shotgun brass. its loaded with a 470 grain bullet and black powder. I pulled a round down and it has around 85 grains of coarse black powder and 25 grains of some sort of filler like coarse sawdust. this was all tightly packed into the case.
Is this a normal load?

Information

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[muffett.2008]

It was till you pulled it apart.

[Patrick Chadwick]

and 25 grains of some sort of filler like coarse sawdust

Maybe semolina? That is a filler often used by BP shooters. 85 gns fills the case up to the shoulder, and anything more is just painful for your shoulder Much less, and the filler could become compressed into a lump below the shoulder, in effect plugging the cartridge case. As muffet wrote, it sounds like a typical M-H load.

[Richardwv]

Is it normal....NO. Normal would be loading to original Brit standards, which is 85 grains of BP covered with cotton wool (carded cotton), a fiber card, a wax scrubber, two more fiber cards, and a paper patched bullet weighing 480 grains. Many folks of course deviate from the established standard to fit their own point of view and available materials. The real question is whether it is safe and potentially accurate, and there is insufficient information to answer that.

85 grains of BP in a CBC case brings the powder up to the start of the shoulder, meaning that whatever comes next should be soft/compressible and not capable of creating a further restriction at the neck, which is much smaller than the surface area of the powder charge. You can't identify the filler, which is a problem. In this application it should be a fiber filler (kapok, wool, cotton, etc). Anything that is remotely hard or capable of creating a plug can (and eventually will) raise pressure above the norm for this cartridge. With the CBC balloonhead case this is a particular problem since the rim/head is much weaker than modern solidhead cases and particularly prone to separation when not fully supported and used within normal pressure (which is why this case design was abandoned in the late 1800s except for shotshells which operate at relatively low pressures). Without knowing what filler was used and how it behaves that low in a severely bottlenecked cartridge like the 577/450 nobody here can render a credible opinion on suitability. In general, granulated fillers are restricted to use in straight wall or very slightly necked cartridges and not one necked like the 577/450.

As for accuracy, assuming the load gives consistent pressures, the next question is bullet diameter. Bores in rifles chambered for 577/450 vary considerably, from about .454 to .467, which is quite a range to load "generic" ammunition for. The tendency for those loading for unknown rifles is to load to the smaller diameter bullets, which will perform well in such smaller bores, but rattle like peas down the larger ones. You don't say what the bullet diameter is nor what rifle it is to be shot in. Assuming it is a Brit military Martini-Henry, you'd want a bullet .002 to .003 over maximum groove to groove diameter, or about .469 or so. If you were shooting a Gahendra, which frequently has much tighter bores, likely you'd be looking for a bullet of around .457. Knowing what rifle it is to be shot in is important to giving a full answer.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Is it normal....NO. Normal would be loading to original Brit standards, which is 85 grains of BP covered with cotton wool (carded cotton), a fiber card, a wax scrubber, two more fiber cards, and a paper patched bullet weighing 480 grains.

Correct, but have you really got the time for that lengthy production process? And does it bring better results?

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------

85 grains of BP in a CBC case brings the powder up to the start of the shoulder, meaning that whatever comes next should be soft/compressible and not capable of creating a further restriction at the neck, which is much smaller than the surface area of the powder charge.

Correct again. I use a thick felt cleaning wad as a filler/spacer. Then you can skip the card wad, assuming you are not going to keep the loaded cartridges for months.

[TheDoubleD]

Correct, but have you really got the time for that lengthy production process? And does it bring better results?

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------




Correct again. I use a thick felt cleaning wad as a filler/spacer. Then you can skip the card wad, assuming you are not going to keep the loaded cartridges for months.

In loading these old cartridges you make time, just to be on the safe side. You don't leave out steps to avoid work, you leave out steps to experiment and see if you can improve the load.

You carefully change the load composition until you find the right combination. You make notes about the load composition and the load results, and that all takes time and will greatly enhance you shooting experience.

Mr. E, that sawdust like material is, if you are in North America, probably Cream of wheat breakfast cereal (CoW), else where semolina or something similar. Read RichardWV explanation and get a better understanding about what it does.

Before you shoot those CBC cases put one in the chamber and then insert feeler gauges in the gap between case head and breech block. If you can insert .010 inch of feeler gauge do not shoot these case in your rifle. If you cannot insert a .010 inch but can insert .006 inch feeler gauge then the rifle is in head space for that cartridge for field use. Use caution firing the first couple of rounds. If you can not insert a .006 inch feeler gauge then I would just shoot the cartridges and not use the CoW in the future.

This applies to both Gahnedra's and Martini Henry's-making note of course to RichardWV warding about bullet size.

If you have a Martini Henry Francotte it should not be shot. There are some serious issue with the metallurgy and heat treatment of the Francottes. Not all Francotte's are unsafe, but there is no way to tell which are safe. It's kind of like playing the lottery---you can't win if you don't play. Having an action fail 2 inches from your face is not a prize you want to win. And like the lottery you may have to play number of time before you win....you may shoot the rifle many times before it fails. One reported several years back over on Gunboards went 144 shots before it failed.

[ActionYobbo]

the rifle is a westly richards that is union of south africa marked
I have fired 5 kynoch from it and the cases look good
I have a chamber adapter and have fired 400+ 45acp from it

these cbc loaded cases are from an unknown source

?with the powder and filler ...
if I were to mix the powder and filler and pour it back into the case and seat the bullet would this cause problems
I am inclined to pull them all apart and check them or am I being to cautious.
My other thought is to pull the bullet and fire the load as a blank and fireform the case then load them so I know whats in them


I am not a BP shooter so I am probably being over cautious

added:
I tried a case in the chamber and there is excessive space between the bolt and case head. I can see the rim is alot thinner than the kynoch rim. I fitted an O ring to the cbc case and that holds the HS tight for fireforming.I might pull them all down and find a gallery load to fireform the cases to the chamber.
I have a pile of reject cast .45 230 grain bullets that I can use and save the 470's for later

[Richardwv]

Fire forming the case to the chamber isn't going to help with the rim seperation issue because it is a balloonhead case and either the rim/case wall junction is fully supported or it isn't. Unlike solidhead cases that you can fireform to headspace on the shoulder without exposing the junction between head and case wall, the junction in CBC is the rim and fireforming will just move that junction into open air and virtually assure a seperation.....which again is why this design was abandoned for rifle cases in the late 1800s.

As to mixing the filler and powder, it really isn't worth the trouble since you will get inconsistant ignition and velocity. Personally I'd pull the rounds down and reload properly....but only if your headspace test laid out by DoubleD passes. Otherwise, your rifle just isn't suitable for use of CBC....which somewhere around 30% of the rifles in 577/450 aren't.

As to the seperate comments about taking the time, yes I take the time. Frankly the most time is spent in case prep between cleaning, sizing and trimming as needed, which is totally independent of what I next load in them. Recently I completed a competition using over 30 rounds without wiping/cleaning at all and the last round was as accurate as the first. The Brits weren't fools in developing this round and everything that was done was done for a reason. Not all of those reasons apply to weekend plinking since we don't transport our ammo halfway around the world and then expect to fight a war with it....but there were reasons that should be understood before experimenting with deviations.

[TheDoubleD]

the rifle is a westly richards that is union of south africa marked
I have fired 5 kynoch from it and the cases look good
I have a chamber adapter and have fired 400+ 45acp from it

Is your rifle a "Westley Richards made for ZAR" or is it Westley Richards marked with broadarrow inside a U for Union of South Africa?

ZAR is the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek one the Boer Republics sometimes known as the Transvaal . Union of South Africa was the historic predecessor of the current Republic of South Africa and includes the old Transvaal territory.



Westley Richards did sell guns to ZAR that were later used by the Union. My ZAR also bears the U w/broadarrow mark for the Union.



The Westley Richards made fo ZAR rifles are the creme de la creme if Military pattern Martini style rifles,

if I were to mix the powder and filler and pour it back into the case and seat the bullet would this cause problems

Just dump that one.

I tried a case in the chamber and there is excessive space between the bolt and case head. I can see the rim is alot thinner than the kynoch rim. I fitted an O ring to the cbc case and that holds the HS tight for fireforming.I might pull them all down and find a gallery load to fireform the cases to the chamber.

If you inserted the case in the chamber and were able to inserted a .010 feeler gauge between case head and breech block DO NOT shoot these cases in this chamber. These are rimmed cases and headspace on the rim. These are shot gun type cases and can not be safely head spaced off the shoulder. First because of the rotation of the breech the cases will be to long to close breech block.

Second these are semi balloon head cases, The junction of the front if the rim directly relates to the interior bottom section of the powder chamber. These cases when thye first came out had a history of failing in this area.



These cases as I said are shotgun cases with shot gun rims. Here is a tapered shotgun rim next to a standard rifle case for the martini. The forward portion of the rim is you datum from which head space is gauged.



When these case first came out there were a number problems with them and it had to to do with CBC cases not being able to head space in the gun....fingers were pointed at the guns being out of headspace but such was not the case,. It was just the shotgun rim allowed the case to go to deep into the chamber and not properly headspace. Result- bulged heads and head separations. Look at this bulged case and you see it is also itstarting separate.



If the CBC cases will not headspace in you gun try standard solidi head cases, such as Bertram, Jamison, Kynoch, etc.

[ActionYobbo]

thanks for all the good advice.
I will not be using these cbc loads in the gun.

This martini has minimal markings on it. On the barrel between the rear sight and the knoxform is "westly richards &co special (triangle) quality" on the knoxform is U with a diamond in it and U with an arrow pointing out and 450. There is 3 very small proof marks 1) right rear of the breach block 2) right side of the knoxform 3) right front of the receiver. I cant make out the proof mark. It is very small and looks like it was done with a worn punch. all 3 proofs look like crown(unreadable)P . could be script BP or WP Thats all the external markings on this gun the internals are marked crownWD or crown73