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Thread: Unit markings on transit case for no. 4 rifle

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  1. #1
    Legacy Member Tatanka's Avatar
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    Unit markings on transit case for no. 4 rifle

    One of my projects for this winter is to restore a transit case I bought last year that needs some TLC. I have a can of the original paint (which I'll have to filter and mix thoroughly...).

    Now I'd like to identify the unit this case belonged to. The only markings on it are four scorpions, two on each face of the case:



    There is no writing anywhere on it. No numbers, nuthin'...

    It's Canadianicon surplus as far as I know. Any leads?
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    Can I make a suggestion? By all means give it some tender loving care, but don't re-paint it.
    Those scorpion stencils may not mean anything to anyone on this forum today - but I am confident one day they will mean something very significant and they are a part of the history.
    Scorpions and pink/khaki paint = desert.
    Preserve, not restore, is the way to go. IMHO.
    Last edited by RobD; 10-19-2014 at 09:21 AM.

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    Contributing Member Gil Boyd's Avatar
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    Well I can certainly say its not an LRDG stensil, but I would put money on it not being Canadianicon but belonging to the 2nd Australianicon Armoured Division they had scorpions on everything between 1942-43 copying Ralph Bagnalls original LRDG theme of a scorpion on the cap badge as shown above. They also had the scorpion replace the tank on their armoured cap badge from memory in the late 70's with the 3rd Cavalry Div, and I am sure Peter L may know more on that, and might even remember seeing your logo on cases
    Last edited by Gil Boyd; 10-19-2014 at 11:31 AM.
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Nope, never saw that logo. THe ones we came across were just the usual locations and UIN numbers and suchlike. We weren't sentimental either. A chest like that that came in would be sent over to the A&G section to be repaired and repainted. Simple as that!

    But looking aside, pink desert paint is a recent phenomena. Up to '67/Aden era when we pulled out of the Middle East, it was always what we called KD or Khaki Drill/ sandy yellow colour. Not the colour we see today but a tad darker

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    An example of Aussie use orf the scorpion

    The below badge is of a Black Scorpion encased by a wreath with the tail swung up as if to strike placed over a inverted boomerang which has the unit motto RESOLUTE and is finished in gunmetal colour to reflect that it had been designed and chosen in a combat area.

    The badge was designed by Lieutenant General John Grey, AO (retd) and assisted by Charles Gaunt and Colonel Roger Kershaw (retd) both whom where adjutants in succession during Lieutenant General Greys time in Vietnam. It was chosen as the Symbol of the 3rd Cavalry Regiment as it had already been adopted informally and painted on the side of all M113A1 vehicles with the Squadron.
    The reason it was chosen was due to the prolific Black Scorpions crucial time in battle and to this day that reputation is maintained. The Queen approved the Scorpion Badge in 1972 and it took until 1977-78 before the Regiment was badged correctly. Up until that time the 3rd Cavalry Regiment wore the Corps Badge, except for the initial period in 27th May 1965 - 14th September 1965 when the 4th/19th Prince of Wales Light Horse badge was worn.

    For you history buffs, this is how it all started. The badge derived from a stencil, which was applied, to the left hand side front of all 4 Troop tracks. This was commenced about Aug 66, for the reasons outlined below:

    a. When 1 APC Sqn was first deployed to SVN on HMAS SYDNEY, only the SHQ and LAD, all of the APCs meant for the new 2 Tp, and Spt Tp of Tp HQ and three sects were deployed. The last consisted of four mortar tracks (two sects) and Spt arms APC sect of four APCs with a Tp HQ of two APCs, total 10 vehicles. The Sqn was to pick up 1 Tp ex Bien Hoa on Op Hardihood at Nui Dat in May 66. This was done and the 1APC Sqn then could field two APC Tps (2 Tp, Guymer, and a renamed 3 Tp, Roberts). Each was to support a nominated Inf bn.

    b. These two APC Tps proved insufficient as TAOR and operations with ARVN and SAS needed to be undertaken whilst the two APC Tps were either deployed (1 Tp with 5RAR, 3 Tp with 6RAR). An additional APC Tp had therefore to be created. This was done by transferring two APCs each from 2 and 3 Tps and from Sqn HQ to the newly created 4 Tp, thereby providing each APC Tp with a three APC sect of each 3 tracks, and a Tp HQ of two tracks. The four mortar tracks, which had patrolled extensively with 4 Tp when not deployed as comfortable baseplate, transferred to Sqn HQ.

    c. The 4 Tp scorpion logo, originally bestowed on the mortar sect vehicles (being the "sting in the tail" of 4 Tp whilst the enemy was being held by the armour and direct fire weapons to the front), was retained by 4 Tp throughout its tour. It was a normal function for 4 Tp to patrol in Tp strength, with a mounted mortar sect and close protection Inf pl from a resting Inf bn, for long periods. Functions included securing helo LZ, dropping/collecting SAS patrols, ambushing and reacting with own or ARVN infantry Coy�s aboard.
    Last edited by Gil Boyd; 10-19-2014 at 01:16 PM.
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Might be a good idea to hold off on the refinishing until this is nailed down. That pink looks like it has been on there a good while.
    “There are invisible rulers who control the destinies of millions. It is not generally realized to what extent the words and actions of our most influential public men are dictated by shrewd persons operating behind the scenes.”

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    This thread rung a (very) dim bell, and I dug this out of an old issue of Skennertons' "international Arms & Militaria Collector", No 5 Quarterly (1992). On page 13, page titled "Australianicon army formation signs, 1939-1945," I found this. Dont know it if is related or relevant, but it was a good excuse for rooting through some old publications.

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    Contributing Member Gil Boyd's Avatar
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    Thanks for that. I am sure other Allied countries had similar badged units but Australiaicon did use the stensil in various forms right up to and past the Vietnam war.
    Someone on the board in Aus will probably find the answer. Good luck with your search but as been said I would leave it as is and preserve
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    We just had a white kangaroo on the doors of our trucks - later changed to deep red, The downside with all this hypothesis is that the ONLY No4T's I ever saw in Australianicon service were with the resident Battalion in Malaya and that was simply because they were issued from UKicon stockpiles over there and simply stayed there when the last Poms (I think they were the KSLI) withdrew in late '68. All (?) that kit was taken back to Oz. The L4 Brens most certainly were, as were the AR15's/M-16's, some vehicles..., the usual sort of stuff. The Malay Army took over the remainder.

    Saw my first forward control Land Rovers there, used by the Malays as gun tractors

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    Hm... it's not only a scorpion. It's super-imposed on a triangle or pyramid.



    I wonder if the transit case hails from a Gulf state?
    But, if Britishicon, then The 64th Fighter Squadron is a possibility, from a graphics point of view. Would an RAF unit have No 4 (T)s during WW2?
    Peter, while I appreciate that pink/khaki is a recent colour, the sand-coloured khaki which preceded it for decades was preceded in turn by pink/khaki paint in the 1940s - certainly some of the time - maybe the mixture of pigments change in time, but I have seen South African WW2 brodie helmets from N African campaign that were more pink than sand-coloured.

    The 64th fighter squadron " Took part in the British Western Desert Campaign, engaged in combat during the Battle of El Alamein and, as part of Ninth Air Force, supported the Commonwealth Eighth Army's drive across Egypt and Libya, escorting bombers and flying strafing and dive-bombing missions against airfields, communications, and troop concentrations until Axis defeat in Tunisia in May 1943. The unit participated in the reduction of Pantelleria (May–June 1943) and the conquest of Sicily (July–August 1943).The squadron supported the British Eighth Army's landing at Termoli and subsequent operations in Italyicon, being reassigned to Twelfth Air Force in August 1943. It flew dive-bombing, strafing, patrol, and escort missions."

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