what is the correct pecar scope for enforcer snipers?

[Gil Boyd]

Thank God

[PrinzEugen]

I could be wrong, but I don't think Peter participated in the 'repro enforcer' craze.

[superbee]

Thanks for the info.
If anybody spots a pecar scope for sale,let me know.

Cheers

[Peter Laidler]

This is a repeat of older stuff but the demand for a new marksmans rifle for the Police was due to the old No4T's that were issued to them in the 50's, (along with other service weapons on an ad-hoc as you need it basis) were to be withdrawn due to the shortage of service No4T's to be converted into L42's for the UK MoD. The Police wanted a replacement so a HO committee was drawn up and the natural replacement was the L42 BUT...... The No4T and the L42's were sniper rifles and the Police weren't snipers as such and according to George, he convinced the Home Office that they needed an accurate marksmans rifle. In any case, there weren't sufficient L42's - that's why the No4T's were being culled from everywhere!! Major Sxxxxs was part of the intelligence world, in the MoD and later at the Trials and Development world and later at the Small Arms School and put the very accurate L39 in the frame. It was accepted. Fultons at Bisley did the first telescope conversions and when the HO spec was approved Enfield took over.

It has to be said that the No4T's that were handed back by the Police were generally in very poor condition, sometimes being returned as simply the rifle and nothing else. That's not a reflection on them because even the issue of pistols was rare. Rifles were almost an alien concept to the Police in the late 60's/70's and as such, they languished in the back of the police stations

[Alan de Enfield]

This is a repeat of older stuff but the demand for a new marksmans rifle for the Police was due to the old No4T's that were issued to them in the 50's, (along with other service weapons on an ad-hoc as you need it basis) were to be withdrawn due to the shortage of service No4T's to be converted into L42's for the UK MoD. The Police wanted a replacement so a HO committee was drawn up and the natural replacement was the L42 BUT...... The No4T and the L42's were sniper rifles and the Police weren't snipers as such and according to George, he convinced the Home Office that they needed an accurate marksmans rifle. In any case, there weren't sufficient L42's - that's why the No4T's were being culled from everywhere!! Major Sxxxxs was part of the intelligence world, in the MoD and later at the Trials and Development world and later at the Small Arms School and put the very accurate L39 in the frame. It was accepted. Fultons at Bisley did the first telescope conversions and when the HO spec was approved Enfield took over.

It has to be said that the No4T's that were handed back by the Police were generally in very poor condition, sometimes being returned as simply the rifle and nothing else. That's not a reflection on them because even the issue of pistols was rare. Rifles were almost an alien concept to the Police in the late 60's/70's and as such, they languished in the back of the police stations

The "story" from the 'other side of the fence'

The Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police in the late 1960's was a rifleman himself. Although there was the possibility that planes at London Airport might be hijacked - in 1969 the british Airports Authority Constabulary were refused permission to hold firearms, because of this the Metropolitan Police specialist Firearms unit D.11 had to provide 24 hour cover. This duty was later taken over by the 'T' and 'X' Divisions of the Met. Initially specialist Rifle teams were trained and issued with 7.62mm L42A1 rifles - fitted with the No.32 telescope. These rifles were initially hired from the Ministry of Defence at a cost of £310.00 per year.

In 1970 A working party on firearms for police use in peacetime was convened, which included representatives from the Home Office, Ministry of Defence and several Police Forces. An interim report was produced on 20th September 1971, this resulted in Home Office circular 176/72 dated 29th September 1972. The circular recommended that the police should be equipped with the L39A1 7.62mm rifle to be fitted with a commercially available 'Pecar' 4 - 10 x 'Scope'.

In the meantime, the 'borrowed' L42A1 Rifles had not impressed the Met. Twenty of the first batch to be 'hired' were returned straight away after being inspected by the force armourer. Another five were sent to the Royal Small Arms factory during the first year. Following an inspection by the Weapons Branch, Technical Group, Woolwich on 2nd August 1972 it was found that 17 out of the 30 rifles needed workshop adjustment and of those 9 were unsafe to use! The defected rifles were sent to the REME workshops at Donnington.

The Home Office agreed to release (de-classify) several documents as part of AM Stevens research - the minutes of a meeting to decide on the base rifle and scope is interesting - here is the part where PH are nominated as supplier/installer of sights

The Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield would be prepared to supply the Army target rifle for police purposes provided a guaranteed centrally co-ordinated order was placed, for preferably not less than 500 weapons, to enable a substantial production run to be organized. The mounting which we recommend is a proprietary product of Messrs Parker-Hale of Birmingham who are also the sole United Kingdom agents for Pecar telescope sights. We accordingly recommend that arrangements should be made between the Royal Small Arms Factory.. Messrs Parker-Hale, the Home Departments and chief officers of police for a program to be organized for the supply of L39 A1 rifles which should be delivered from Enfield to Messrs Parker-Hale for the fitting of the mountings and telescopes. We further recommend that the rifles should be produced to the military specification for the L39 AI rifle and be subject to inspection by the Ministry of Defence, Quality Assurance Directorate (Weapons) We think that the total cost of the rifle and telescope could be in the region of £60 to £70.

[Peter Laidler]

That was raised on the forum some time ago and a few pertinent Q's were raised by several forumers, including me. Additionally, the dates don't fit either. Nor does Major George agree - although to be honest he did agree that the Police WANTED L42's! So they either wanted them or they didn't! There were barely sufficient to supply the MoD requirement too! For that reason, the rifles were 'drawn down as we call it on a brigade-by-brigade basis and sent on a rotational; basis to be converted and then re-issued to the next brigade and.......... You know what I mean. The sporadic timing of the conversions surely MUST bear this out. After all, you just can't invent what's already there, for all to see.

Just my opinion based on nothing more that speaking to the people wot woz there at the time, including Capt Steve Sxxxxxs SASC who was running the RM sniping wing at Lympstone at the time and never had the Police through there either! Used the ranges, yes. Used each others weapons etc etc as you tend to do on a range day, yes. But on the courses...., no!

[Gil Boyd]

Peter,
Thats because the Police in the late 80's went to the Home Office Approved "marksman" course held at Devon & Cornwall Police HQ which did get a helping hand from Lympstone. You know my view on calling it a sniper course, which it wasn't ever set up to be.
Just needed men with longer barrels trained to project their skill effectively when required...............a good target trained officer with a well established weapon which just happened to be called a sniper rifle thats it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Peter Laidler]

I realise that Gil, but that was another era to the early 70's, subject. Even up until recently we'd 'mutually share' sniper range days with the local/surrounding forces (or do we call the Police Forces 'services' now?) They certainly had some super-dooper san-fandanglio kit! Bells and whistles etc etc but you'd be hard pressed to stalk overnight with it and even less likely to drag it in the drag-bag behind you, back to your overnight hide!

[Gil Boyd]

Agree with that, as stated before when I came out of the Army proper, men with rows of medals abounded coming to the end of their 30 years after WW2, who had lots of experience with the .303.
The "Enforcer" appeared in early 74 for us, and we, as a Force had loads of them and several L42's......."I wish I knew now what I knew then"!! on how rare they were to become.