Lithgow Rifles Survey

[5thBatt]

Yep look at your survey, the second half of B prefix have barrel dates in the second half of 1941/early 42, C prefix barrel dates are nearly all 1942 but most are on 41 actions, D prefix fall into 1943.
ignore action dates they will only confuse your survey, they only tell you when that receiver was made & nothing to do with when a rifle was assembled.

[muffett.2008]

Except for one slight problem, the D and E series of rifles were for several months, being assembled in two different plants, hence the total confusion of the numbering system for this timeframe.

But it is good to see that you finally recognise that barrels were date stamped on fitment, not when they were made.

Action dates cannot be ignored, they are the only gauranteed constant, butts, bolts, barrels and forewood are and were all subject to replacement, there is absolutely no gaurantee that what we see on the rifle today is what it had originally.
This was covered in depth by Andrew on the Turkey sight back in 2012(give or take a bit).

The correlation of 42 actions with 43 barrels would be normal, those S/Ns all being in the last 10,000 rifles in the D prefix and with barrels stamped with the 7th month( remember they used the financial year) which puts them into the next year block.

These rifles marked in green, other than the troubled period from 1935 to 1938 and again in 1941/42, have barrel dates closely related to actions, an assembly within one year would be the norm.
Post 1926, spare receivers were not dated, but had the date stamped when put into service(these can effectively blur a sample with insufficient numbers to stand alone) but are usually recognised by the later proofs and view/inspection stampings, and the often misaligned date stamp.
So until there is sufficent barrel/date data, there will always be questions, if we had the info off all those rifles on the Serial Number list, I'm sure we would have a definitive answer by now.

[Son]

Here's a couple I came across recently, mate....

Receiver date; serial#; barrel date; notes
1942; D83555; 12 '51; FTR MA52
1917; 88109; 6 '43; FTR MA 11/44
1942; C98544; 11 '42
1942; C87821; (blank? post service replacement? No FTR marks)
1941; B99351; 1 '42

Will have more over time...

[Homer]

Kev are we over complicating this a bit?

You still havent convinced me barrels were dated on assembly, but just to clarify two points. Are you saying a rifle that was assembled in July 1942, would be dated 1943 on the butt? And, I've had a number of low numbered D prefixed rifles that were assembled in 1943. In fact, D331 had a barrel date of 12/42 so it's not just the last 10000 numbers in the D prefix range that were assembled in 1943, if I'm understanding your comments correctly.

Kev I stand by the view that actions as early as 1926 were assembled in 1940. Your survey clearly identifies this including one such example that can't be disputed when compared to other examples in the same serial number range. Ufo8mydogs splendid 1936 is another typical example. The survey is already showing a gentle trend to support this view with the jump in barrel dates, from 36 to 39/40, consistant with jump in serial numbers from B23000 to B25/26000. We know from the maths that a 1935 action with serial number B23385, can't have been assembled the same year as a 1935 with serial number B25866. Now you'd probably tell me that assembly was occuring on two separate lines using different blocks of serial numbers, and yes that would explain the large separation in numbers, but the butt and barrel suggest otherwise. The action B23385 has a barrel date 36 and a butt date 36. The action B25866 has a barrel and butt date 1940. And this has been observed many many times( I've owned several) and accepted by many highly respected and esteemed Lithgow enthusiast around the country. What is it that's giving you so much doubt Kev? I could plaster this board with photos of like examples but ufo8mydogs rifle is absolutely black and white to me. Butt, barrel and serial number all indicate 1940 assembly as does the 1929 rifle brad posted earlier.
Mate there's so much more to touch on but so little time and I'm fading away. We may just have to agree to disagree

[5thBatt]

But it is good to see that you finally recognise that barrels were date stamped on fitment, not when they were made.

I did not say that, the barrel date just indicates the earliest date the rifle could have been assembled, if anything i go with the date being the manufacture/acceptance date of the barrel & i go with that as i have a 1918 LSA that has been rebarreled that has the date of 10 '39 but below the serial number has a date of 8 '40.

[Homer]

I haven't seen any source at this point in time to suggest barrel dates were applied on assembly, where as it seems to me by rifle samples, it was applied earlier. I follow the most widely accepted view that it is possibly a manufacture/acceptance date or applied when barrels were 1st proofed. I agree woth 5thbatt, barrel dates are a guide that indicate the earliest time a rifle may have been assembled, but are not definitive.

[muffett.2008]

I don't disagree with you Andrew on the early actions being assembled later, problem being there is only one record of this in the 1938/39 report, it was only 540 rifles, a very small amount in relation to the overall picture.
Attachment 63940

As these rifles would have been upgraded to 1st Class, the chances of more than a few surviving intact with no upgrades are really very slim, 30,000 rifles being sent to England in 1941, basically denuding the Army of all but 2nd line rifles for six months.

As to barrel dates, try reading the Notes to Inspectors documents and related personal papers of those members of the Inspectorate from F.E Hart on.

[muffett.2008]

July Update.
Attachment 64037
Attachment 64038
Attachment 64039
Attachment 64041
Attachment 64040

Did I say how much I loved the Rifle Club movement?
Attachment 64042

[ufo8mydog]

July Update.

Did I say how much I loved the Rifle Club movement?
Attachment 64042

Nice Muffett. How much of it is original?

[AFJon]

Lithgow 1941, ser #D2632, barrel dated 12-42