Unsporterize an Enfield No.4 Mk.1

[Surpmil]

According to the Long Branch documents by T.H.Marshall, the Production Manager who wrote up the factory report upon closing in 1946, Long Branch had done all the engineering for the No.5 expecting a post war order. More than likely they made a few prototypes.

There is at least one indisputable photo showing a Long Branch built No.5

[harlton]

Hi Seaspriter,

I really like your carbine, for my money, I would add a rear hand guard, just to save my fingers from getting burnt, that's just me. By the way what is the nose cap mat'l made from cast/machined steel or a sheet stamping, thanks.
On Long Branch jungle carbines, I was personally at an auction in Ontario, with a lead gunsmith from a very famous lee Enfield Shop here. He purchased the 1944 long Branch jungle Carbine. It looked genuine to me, but I didn't have the spare cash, he got it, and it went for a good dollar. No Bodged numbers, missing markings etc, plain LB wood with no metal cap, shaped right, with all the lightening cuts and stock dia flash hider.
I have no idea how many they made, I do own a LB marked 800yd J.C. sight, so maybe they made up parts, and some got made, but there are some out there. There's also the other longbranch, lightened rifle, but I've never seen one of those. If memory serves me right, I got the sight from Marstar, over 20yrs ago, when I was just happy to have the correct type sight on my own J.Carbine.

Regards Ian

[Seaspriter]

I really like your carbine, for my money, I would add a rear hand guard, just to save my fingers from getting burnt, that's just me. By the way what is the nose cap mat'l made from cast/machined steel or a sheet stamping, thanks.

Thanks Ian. The carbine is actually a very attractive piece -- if you can get out of your mind what it looked like before being converted (something that is hard to do, especially for all of us who love Enfields).

Your idea of putting on a rear handguard, especially a grooved one, might be a very interesting modification of an sporterized model that has the barrel snipped and the foresight reconfigured. I wouldn't do it to mine because it would mean replacing the fore-end, which has been shaved down to make it more delicate. But it is certainly an option for those who just don't want the sporterized look and cannot justify the economics of a replacement barrel or a reconfiguration of the muzzle to original specs.

The fore-end is birch (Savage) and the nose cap is a stock Savage sheet-metal nose cap that has been reduced in length and one new hole repositioned for standard retaining pins.

If you check Long Branch - Linking Serial Numbers to Month of Production, you will see that LB didn't get a directive to start engineering on the No.5 until April 1945. LB could have used a 1944 barrel and receiver for their prototype, but logic would say that after making lightening cuts in the barrel and receiver, any prototypes would then be stamped "1945." It could be if you saw a '44 LB No.5 it was a retro-fake. However, I am not an expert at this micro-niche in LB's history, so I will defer to several others who are better informed.

Glad you got a rare LB 800 yd sight -- those can't be very common.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

If it has "commercial" markings that point to its "conversion" it is not just another "Bubba in the barn" job.

Whilst not nearly as valuable to collectors of the original, it sits in a class of its own.

There are a LOT of "non-military" Lee Enfields floating about; think of all of the "sporters" built by many British gunmakers, especially pre-WW1. In Canada you even had a "government" sporter; the EAL rifle.

So you could start with collecting well-made "sporters" and then slowly (and expensively), track down the "properly configured" originals as a companion / comparison piece.

If you can get them cheaply enough, perhaps keep them in a (dark) corner in your gun room sign-posted; "Bubba Was Here".

You might even find the odd "sporterized" Snider or Ross to add some more "local character". (You may ALSO find ORIGINAL Snider and Ross sporters lounging in odd places as well. I was given a pile of parts some years ago. In it was most of a "small" Snider sporter, in what looks to be .400 Rook, (or something equally obscure), with a broken stock, and no "hammer"; bore is almost mint. Another "rainy day" project!

Such things may even make useful "trade goods" in your bargaining to save a "nice" original of something, someday. (Common collectors "justification" line!)

We can't all afford to be purists.

[Seaspriter]

If it has "commercial" markings that point to its "conversion" it is not just another "Bubba in the barn" job.

Bruce in Oz -- you make a very valid and important distinction. The Parker-Hale conversions were quite often "cream of the crop" cherry-picked FTR rifles, and very nicely converted. Many (like mine) had special foresights and rear-sights (such as the PH-4 &5). These should never be classified as "Bubba" monstrosities. In the '50s & '60s the Parker Hale conversions were often quite expensive with exotic stocks. (Google "Parker Hale Catalog" Images to see the quality of these guns) Bubba, on the other hand, is a category not worth gracing with discussion.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

And if you have any cash left over, you can start on the Epps sporters and then there are the Australian "commercial sporters", mostly produced at SAF Lithgow and sold by "Sportco".

I have one of the Sportco .25-.303 jobs, complete with correct vintage "Field" brand side mount for the scope. I removed and saved the "authentic / period" 1950's vintage Japanese optics and replaced them with Mr. Leupold's excellent 2-7x compact job. Superbly accurate, it is my "go-to" centre-fire rifle for general field shooting, (goats, pigs, feral cats and dogs, etc.), but I prefer a "full-sized" .303 cartridge, or larger, for "hat-rack hunting"

[harlton]

Thanks Ian. The carbine is actually a very attractive piece -- if you can get out of your mind what it looked like before being converted (something that is hard to do, especially for all of us who love Enfields).

Your idea of putting on a rear handguard, especially a grooved one, might be a very interesting modification of an sporterized model that has the barrel snipped and the foresight reconfigured. I wouldn't do it to mine because it would mean replacing the fore-end, which has been shaved down to make it more delicate. But it is certainly an option for those who just don't want the sporterized look and cannot justify the economics of a replacement barrel or a reconfiguration of the muzzle to original specs.

The fore-end is birch (Savage) and the nose cap is a stock Savage sheet-metal nose cap that has been reduced in length and one new hole repositioned for standard retaining pins.

If you check Long Branch - Linking Serial Numbers to Month of Production, you will see that LB didn't get a directive to start engineering on the No.5 until April 1945. LB could have used a 1944 barrel and receiver for their prototype, but logic would say that after making lightening cuts in the barrel and receiver, any prototypes would then be stamped "1945." It could be if you saw a '44 LB No.5 it was a retro-fake. However, I am not an expert at this micro-niche in LB's history, so I will defer to several others who are better informed.

Glad you got a rare LB 800 yd sight -- those can't be very common.

Hi Seaspriter,

Your carbine reminds me of the old lee speed rifles, which I really like, I own one complete lee speed rifle, others on the way. My Rifle has been nicely worked over, by some long gone Canadian Smith, and when I was more foolish. I let a really nicely engraved, and Ribbed carbine go, from accuracy Plus in Peterborough, Ont, for the princely sum of $150.00 about 2yrs ago, I don't even like owning up to it.
I'm wiser now. and A great shame that a lot of these Guns, just don't get the respect they deserve, they handle really nicely. That Carbine is one of my biggest regrets, fantastic rifle. In certain circles they are starting to rise, price wise, a youtube video circulating about values one at $2000.00, at a show, but these are old pre WW1 rifles. I don't think the wait on these later ones will be so slow, as their quickly disappearing one way or another,as Donors.
I'm afraid, that I'm fairly lacking on the factory record aspects, and #'s in circulation regards, the three guys bidding on the Jung, wanted it bad, it was at a high end, international auction. Offering many fully auto old WW1 & 2 guns, all still fully auto, and still in mint condition, ranging from a lewis gun, which I have a thing for, and was pictured holding one, Through Vicker's, Bren's, sten's, and SOE stuff. Then the same type of range of German arms, was on offer too.
To be really honest, I didn't appreciate the LB jungle carbine at the time. The guy who purchased it, was there for that gun, I was after a W&S scope.
As I said, it looked to be very honest to me, I don't have an explanation, all I can say is, all looked un-fudged, and all matched up, like 44 No's and correct inscription etc. The chap who purchased it, was very very knowledgeable, so I don't see that he would:- wait all day to purchase a fake and drop that kind of cash, he knew what he wanted, and I remember the date on it well, due to all the early run features.
Not at those prices for me. I don't want to mention who, and where they work exactly, I've said to much already, but they don't get any better on Enfields.
I just liked the rifle period, I own a P.H. a worked over, 1947 Faz model, and I love it. So when I saw the earlier kind , it was a case of, wouldn't it be nice to have an earlier one, the all wood type, and especially a Canadian one. Sorry to confirm my lack of Knowledge, but I won't forget that now.
I have, a nice early 43 No4* with cut-off marks started on the R.H. side , all parts are matched and marked with a sniper type T, under the 5 groove barrel, the receiver and all the trigger parts, also have a small C surrounding an Arrow, with the T and a S, the mag is marked for special work too. Theirs a T on the Knuckle beside what looks like an 8 or an R and a F16 with a line thru it, but it stops there no further conversion. Also has a big T on the Barrel a big S and an R, It's # is 30lxxxx, fully listed in one of my other ramblings.
That all aside, I think Bruce in Oz has a valid point, really nice professional conversions can be had for a song, right now. Who would have thought just a few years ago, we would have to spend the kind of money we do for a stock Enfield's.
Those Marstar Lithgow's sold for $75.00 and some for $50.00, I still have them, One Brand new, never fired, and a real nice one, with a central rear sight setup now, I paid $100 for the complete kit. Sorry I've gone on so long, but I do like those carbine/Rifles thou, regardless of generation and always thought PH was the IT.

[lawrence_n]

I've heard a lot of noise about the Long Branch No.5 jungle carbines. I had a chance to buy one many years ago for $500.! It was gone before I could get back to the guy, no surprise there, so I missed a great chance. The information I was given is that Canadian Arsenals made 30 prototype No.5's. Of that number 27 were BELIEVED destroyed, one is purportedly in the Canadian War Museum, and 2 are in private hands. The one I saw had a '45 dated receiver and an "X" preface (or maybe it was "EX") and it did not have the standard "L" style serial number. If anyone has better or more certain information, I'd love to hear it. As to this thread about restoring a No.4, I just did one as well. It was a virtually unmolested '43 Long Branch from the condition of the metal, but it had the 3 holes drilled into the receiver (2 on the nox form, and one in the charger bridge). I managed to fill them not too badly and got my hands on "LB" marked wood and metal parts, so it' s a real beauty now.