What have i done?

[Peter Laidler]

Talking of stand holders who are 'experts' and punters who are spoken to or ridiculed as mere buffoons, there's always the other side of the coin................... But I know what you mean. You should have heard the total absolute pure horse manure I used to hear from the experts as well as the not so experts. I used to stop 'em in their tracks and tell/explain as we went along. You name it about the Sten, Sterling and Lanchester et-al and I've heard it! I can't tell you how many cocked Stens I have thrown down or kicked all over the floor just to illustrate a point to experts

[Robert303]

I do agree that there are some 'Customers' I have learnt a lot from, and I'm normally careful about what I say, but by 4pm on Saturday I'm not really intertested in the 20 minute story of how you shot your brother with a Webley Junior air pistol like the one I want to sell! I think I was at the height of my 'I know it all' feeling after a few years in a pistol club. Then I was lucky enough to be sent to Shrivenham on a Customs 'Train the Trainers' course. I just wish I could remember the names of those that ran that course. I realised that I knew very little and had a LOT to learn and that they had the knowledge. Best courses I've ever been on and the only Customs courses I miss! I still think the '9mm is useless and wouldn't go through a wet greatcoat' is one of the best 'Expert opinions' I've heard.

[harlton]

Hi There,
I've been reading this thread, and all the discussions with interest, one thing and maybe I've lost track of it here, please forgive me if so. This rifle was supposed to be a police enforcer model wasn't it ? I'm no expert, other than reading a little here and there and a page called "Steve's enforcer page". That's the only rifle covered on the page, and he seems very knowledgeable.
Doesn't the real Enforcer, only use the Parker hale scope conversion kits, to mount the Pecar scope, by using A short piece of rail, that has two screws set in it, and then tapped in atop the receiver ring, A blank tapered No1 type milled sight piece is used, that replace's the standard No4's milled sight, and acts as the rear scope mount. All followed up with a sterling 308 conversion kit, and the correct P.H. target style woodwork, fitted with an alloy accessory rail, bi-pod and alloy hand piece to help when using the rifle on the sling.
I was glad to read you got your money back as this, was clearly not even a well done knock off, using dubious parts.
From my limited understanding of these rifles, they were all professional conversions, by either Parker Hale, or Dagenham. Also they never used old sniper rifles, as the makings, so the badly reworked area, for the absent front pad should never have been there anyway, should it ?
I would appreciate being corrected, on any area's where I have it wrong, now that there's been a commercial happy ending. As this is probably the most easily faked of the real sniper rifles, with genuine parts or even kits still popping up.

[Robert303]

Harlton,
My mistake was 1) I was far too impulsive. 2) I read the blurb instead of asking for better photographs and 3) I had read a 'bit' about these rifles but not enough. With hindsight I should have calmed down. Re read the Home Office Spec that was researched by Steve on his 'Enforcer Page'. I should then have looked at as many decent pictures from KNOWN reliable dealers / collectors as I could, making notes of unique points. If they could not be seen on the rifle that was being sold I should have asked for better pics or walked away. The picture I was looking at was not clear, however I should still have spotted the Magazine and the Butt were not right. In addition, and where possible you study pics of or get examples of the unique pieces such as scope rings and mounts. I have now bought examples of them to see what they really look like. I am however still trying to get some RAHs 4 scope rings as the RAHS 3s I have will NOT fit a Pecar Scope marked 25.4mm on the box. If I cannot get RAHS4s I'll have to accept modern rings until I can. The reworked area on the rifle was not an area that had had a pad on it. I was meant to be the result of the 'Original Designation and number having' been 'Ground Off' according to the blurb.
As I said I've learnt a lot and at least I did not get burnt. Yes it is a rifle that can be quite easily faked BUT unless someone start adding spurious markings there should be no real harm done as Simon runs such a great service identifying the real ones. When mine is done it will look 'Similar' but not identical as I doubt I'l get the right butt. Like the 4T replica I have I will also publish the number.

[Peter Laidler]

Going off the subject a bit Harlon, but back to Rob's thread 32. We had a load of old negligent and accidental discharge papers at our HQ in Warminster that were resurrected occasionally for various reasons and one concerned a Welch Guardsman being accidentally shot with a .38" Enfield by a Cyprus Policeman during a house raid/search in the Troodos(?) mountains in Cyprus in 1963. Apparently and according to custom or reputation .38 ammunition '.....wouldn't pull you off the nest' Someone should have reminded the Policeman and Guardsman of this as he was hit in the chest from 8 yards away.

The bullet went through his webbing ammo pouch, through a LOADED Bren magazine (it might have been two magazines.....), through the rear of the webbing ammo pouch, through the cross-strap below, through his battledress jacket, shirt and chest, was deflected by his ribs, smashing several and lodged in the 'sack' of his heart. His life was saved due to the fact that they were dropped off by helicopter as an element of surprise and it was still there - which flew him immediately to hospital and he lived.

So next time an expert tells you that the little .38 Enfield and its ammo wouldn't pull you off the nest................
(PS, what is the 'sack' of the heart'? Any medicos out there?

[browningautorifle]

- which flew him immediately to hospital

To Akrotiri I should think...and the heart sack is just that. Surrounds the heart.

[RobD]

Its the pericardium, Peter. (AKA the pericardial sac). About as tough as the frayed cotton pocket in my old suit pants, he's a lucky fellow.

[Beerhunter]

I still think the '9mm is useless and wouldn't go through a wet greatcoat' is one of the best 'Expert opinions' I've heard.

Three or four weeks ago I was shooting my 1906 Webley Pocket Pistol, not very successfully, and some of the rounds hit the wooden target frame smashing great big lumps out if it. At the time I recalled all those books and experts who will tell you, with a straight face, that the .32 ACP is not powerful enough for a self-defence (with a "C") cartridge.

[desperatedan]

Harlton,
My mistake was 1) I was far too impulsive. 2) I read the blurb instead of asking for better photographs and 3) I had read a 'bit' about these rifles but not enough. With hindsight I should have calmed down. Re read the Home Office Spec that was researched by Steve on his 'Enforcer Page'. I should then have looked at as many decent pictures from KNOWN reliable dealers / collectors as I could, making notes of unique points. If they could not be seen on the rifle that was being sold I should have asked for better pics or walked away. The picture I was looking at was not clear, however I should still have spotted the Magazine and the Butt were not right. In addition, and where possible you study pics of or get examples of the unique pieces such as scope rings and mounts. I have now bought examples of them to see what they really look like. I am however still trying to get some RAHs 4 scope rings as the RAHS 3s I have will NOT fit a Pecar Scope marked 25.4mm on the box. If I cannot get RAHS4s I'll have to accept modern rings until I can. The reworked area on the rifle was not an area that had had a pad on it. I was meant to be the result of the 'Original Designation and number having' been 'Ground Off' according to the blurb.
As I said I've learnt a lot and at least I did not get burnt. Yes it is a rifle that can be quite easily faked BUT unless someone start adding spurious markings there should be no real harm done as Simon runs such a great service identifying the real ones. When mine is done it will look 'Similar' but not identical as I doubt I'l get the right butt. Like the 4T replica I have I will also publish the number.

Robert - Just a thought but if you're going to fit a "no drill" type mount (Fultons?) won't this sit higher than the base pads as fitted to the receivers on Enforcers, so wouldn't RALS4 rings be better for you? IIRC the L's have 0.23" under them and the H's have 0.486".

[Robert303]

Thanks for this. Scopes and the mounts for them are something I have had little experience of and they appear to have a whole world of their own jargon and codes. For instance can I ask what IIRC is? I can work out the the L and the H though ;-).
Much will depend on 1) The mount I go for and 2) The type / shape of Butt I use. I may go for one of the leather raised cheek pieces to get a decent shooting position for both prone and 'standing foxhole'. This then brings me to bipods. Again I've never used one before. The next question is, can I get an original 'As issued to the Police' bipod IF there ever was such a thing, as some Forces bought the 'Kit' and others bought the rifles and added the 'Extras' later. Again I really need to see an original to have some idea of what I'm looking for. Are there any current bipods that are the same or very similar to the period Parker Hale ones? I can see me trying / buying / selling a lot of bits and pieces in the next few months!

As I'm at Bisley this weekend on the Edinburgh Classics Trade Stand I'll be able to talk to a few people and hopefully see some examples. So if you are passing and have items that might be of interest by all means drop by. I'm reasonably civilised in the morning less so by 5 on Sat!

Thanks to all who have contributed on this thread it's been very helpful and I appreciate it.