Bren Mk1 1942

[alaric45]

Hi All
I'm a new collector of WW2 deact guns and I've always wanted a Bren. I have found this Bren Mk1, which I believe to be a 'Mk1 A' rather than dovetail original. The serial number on the top of the gun is U1503 but the serial number of the base part has been damaged, possibly deliberately? Were the lower/butt parts swapped out often or is this a rebuilt gun? I've not seen UXXXX as an Enfield number, is this correct for 1942? I've attached the limited pictures I have.
Many thanks!

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Information

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[scoobsean]

I'm pretty sure that if the upper and lower had been swapped officially then they would have been renumbered to match. You also have the later Mk2 carrying handle fitted.

[Peter Laidler]

You're right. It is what it is, an ex Indian Army 1942 Mk1A U serial numbered gun. Someone in the past had replaced the butt slide assembly with another of the same era. The butt needs removing and extensively patching to bring it up to scratch. There is a thread about butt patching at the front end. You could carefully file out the old botched numbers and equally carefully stamp in the correct serial number - as we used to do with monotonous regularity. However, if/when you do, make sure that you insert a suitably shaped block of steel in the elongated slot before you punch in the new number.

We hated the flared Mk1 carrying handle. They were a pain in the bottom and were constantly damaged at the front rim part so I'd leave what you have.

But will we ever hear from alaric again I am bound to ask?

[alaric45]

Thanks for the help guys.

I'm impressed you can deduce its an Indian army issue. That's very helpful.

I'm after an authentic Bren, i.e. one that hasn't be altered too much or rebuilt after the war. The mismatching numbers makes me query it as I understand the army would have renumbered it as you describe. I don't really want to do any altering myself.

I have another option which is a dovetail Mk1 which also has a different lower and upper receiver, agh... maybe I should give up on matching numbers. I guess they got swapped around a lot and it is genuine rather than post-war rebuilding guns to sell...?

Thanks for the help!
Alaric

[Flying10uk]

Peter, does the "U" prefix to the serial No. indicate that the Bren was originally intended to be supplied to India or is it just an ex Indian army Bren with a serial No. which, in this case, happens to have a "U" prefixed serial number? To put it another way did all or most new Brens which were sent to India have a serial starting with "U"? Alaric, I think that you will be lucky to find a WW2 dated Bren with fully matching numbers but there does seem to be a few post war dated Brens about with, original, fully matching Nos.. At least the barrel release lever No. matches the receiver No..

[Peter Laidler]

From about 1980 or so we didn't number butt slides at the top rear but along the rear of the left side of the butt slide between the buffer and the sear axis pin, above the rear of the pistol grip. This was a) to prevent damage caused by the number stamping on the rear dinging into the oval slot - which would and could happen and b) when you had engraving facilities you could engrave the number easily there. You didn't need to completely strip the buffer assembly either. It was easier(?) to read too! This miscellaneous instruction was issued under the L4 EMER but like most L4 EMER instructions were adopted across the board - such as renumbering the gun body, the bipod sleeve blast shroud, and a few other odds and sods.

I would imagine that EVERY Bren and L4 in UK military service up until the last ones went in 2004 had been rebuilt many, many times. Hardly original!

Nobody really understood why butt slides were numbered as they all inevitably fitted/interchanged and as such, they worked or they didn't. But the EMER said yes, so numbered they were!

From the early 70's any .303" Brens in service as live or DP were inevitably built-up/repaired using the common L4 parts so you'd see Cadet Forces with what were Mk2 Brens (there were very few Mk1's still live by then.....) that looked like Mk3 guns. You'd have to look very close to realise that they were Mk2's fitted with Mk3 gun barrels. bipods and butts.

The U prefix is just a continuation of the serial number prefix. The only way I know(?) that it's Indian is the thick khaki paint everywhere.

Your 'U' gun IS a dovetail - that's what holds the backsight in place. But not a double dovetail

[alaric45]

This is the other 'extra dovetail' option. I'm not sure the gas vents look correct - namely I can't see them.. and I going crazy...?

Attachment 67735Attachment 67734

Also I have noticed there seem to be two different types of bodywork around the trigger, there is this 'more square' type and the one shown below. They are both 1940 guns and I have seen both styles on a range of guns across the years. Does anybody know which one is correct? Or are both likely to be genuine?

Attachment 67736

Thanks in advance.
Alaric

[Peter Laidler]

Generally speaking the subtle changes in the cheapening of the butt slide from up-cut (the squared type/top photo) milling from contoured (rounded type/bottom photo) milling sort of followed on from somewhere close to the endof the Mk1 guns to the start of the Mk1A types. But unless you've seen 'em all and were there at the time, nobody can truly tell. Made more complicated by the fact that both butt slides (there were a few variations believe me.....) retained the same part number.

There looks to be something alien in the top gun gas cylinder! The first item to get the chop during the war was the fancy Enfield.crown/date logo. It took 12 minutes to pantograph engrave!!

[alaric45]

Thanks Peter for confirming the strange gas cylinder on the top one. I can't figure it out at all.

The Enfield crown looks great but understandably skipped during the war.

[Peter Laidler]

That sort of flat steel plate that appears to be obstructing the gas cylinder looks as though it might be something to prevent the fitting of a service piston into the gun. In other words, a DP. There were a couple of these 'modifications' to Brens and L4's that had tacit approval prior to the introduction of the L54 and L55 series of standardised DP spec guns.

One such that I recall was widely incorporated in the SW District. It was a pin that went down vertically through the gas cylinder. This simple 1/4-3/8" pin prevented a service barrel from being put on and at the same time, prevented a service piston from closing. It also meant that the main gun body could be reverted back to service standard by simply changing the gas cylinder.

It's not well known but with a gun like the Bren with its looooooong service behind it, there were plenty of small modifications incorporated during its life. Some never had any formal approval but were used just to make life easier and improve reliability - or the Unit Armourers lot. Want an example.....? A little steel strap on the underside of the butt to prevent even more damage. Another was......... and so on!