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    February American Rifleman

    A telling article was published in the February AR re the effectiveness of the M1icon Carbine v M1 Garand in Korea - specifically in the extreme cold at the Chosin Reservoir. I have no rock solid opinion either way on this issue but the article quotes a U. S. Marine Assaultman (3.5" rockets) saying that, in his opinion, the carbine was pretty much worthless in combat at the Chosin Reservoir. This flies in the face of many 'expert' opinions, but the difference between the 'experts' and the old Marine is that the Marine was there. One testimony does not resolve any issue but I think it deserves serious consideration. A pretty good article well worth reading. JMHO
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    Tangential to this discussion, there's a contemporary video in the MKLicon that some readers might find interesting ..

    Infantry Weapons and their Effects (WWII and Korean era U.S. Training Films)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipS View Post
    effectiveness of the M1icon Carbineicon v M1 Garand in Korea
    It may depend upon the mindset of the enemy. In the '70's the guard at the building where I worked was a marine who had spent time in the south pacific in WWII. His job was to perch on a tank and shoot (expletive deleted) Jap suicide bombers who were attempting to run up to the tank and blow the treads off, while incidentally blowing themselves up. After he found that he had to shoot them several times with his carbine, he traded it for a M1903. One shot would stop the most determined Jap.

    By the way, after all those years you could still see the smoke rising from his collar when visitors from our Japaneseicon subsidiary came into the building. He had some rough service.
    Ed reluctantly no longer in the Bitterroot

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    Doug:

    Meaning no disrespect, as I really do have NO 'dog in this fight', but it appears to me that these Army training films were intended to instill confidence in our troops in the weapons they had to work with at the time (may not be good grammer but you get my drift). The films have great merit for what they were intended and were made by the same U.S. Army special services propaganda (not a dirty word) teams that brought us 'The MG42's Bark is Worse Than It's Bite' film - the MG42 being arguably the best and most effective light machine gun of WWII, and possibly to date (IMHO). These WWII/Korea/Vietnam Army training films were great tools and are very interesting but, considering the source and the times, hardly accurate and dependable references (again IMHO). I like to hear the testimonies regarding combat arms and armament from the men who actually walked the walk and 'saw the elephant'. I consider only them to be the real experts. But that's just me.
    Semper Fi. ChipS

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    I don't collect for the accuracy and outstanding effectiveness of the Carbine, so this doesn't come from the perspective of a homer. I highly doubt there is anything about the Carbine unique to the conditions stated for any comparable round.

    There are plenty of accounts of people continuing an attack even after being shot multiple times even in non-combat incidents. Especially those who were drugged up. On another board I used to be on a home owner (in his own house) shot an attacking roid-raged neighbor 1 time point blank in the torso with a .45 and the attack continued briefly before the assailant walked out of the house...and then he sued the home owner who shot him.

    For my naturally skeptical mind, 'being there' isn't a convincing enough argument because of the human component. How long has it been since that event now? People are fallible on many levels whether intentionally prejudiced, or by the normal makeup that all humans are impacted by which includes faulty memory.

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    I think this topic will continue to haunt the M1icon carbine long after the last rifle is worn out, there are lots of factors in play here. Having never used the M1 carbine in either combat or casually I can't comment on what those that carried it actually experienced, but a couple of things can be drawn into the discussion.

    1. Speaking frankly, and perhaps a bit gruesomely, the killing of a human with a firearm is not a 100% precise science, even today, there is only a rather small area of the body that results in "light's out" instantly. Otherwise there is a huge amount of factors that will determine the fatality of a gunshot wound; caliber, range, shot placement, individual physiology, possibly even blind luck and sheer human will to survive etc. The human body is a outstanding biological machine that continues to surprise medical science.

    2. Does the .30 M1 Carbine have the capability to kill? Certainly yes, I would say without hesitation, smaller calibers can and do, however soldiers have survived being shot with much larger calibers too, see above.

    3. Is a frozen woolen coat effective body armour? Certainly not, not at any range that should be considered effective for a rifle.

    4. The human factor, soldier's faith in equipment is utterly important, and if something gets a stigma in service, that belief will become fact, and that fact will become military lore. There are many examples of this. It is often said that no one ever found themselves in a firefight wishing for a smaller gun, and the M1 carbine may have found itself, assigned a stigma based on soldier's wishing for the bigger M1 Garand in times of duress. This may be the biggest factor of any I have mentioned.

    I don't want to discount the wartime experiences of those that went, and did, but if I had to choose to be shot with something, I certainly wouldn't don my wool coat and instruct someone to level an M1 carbine at me. LOL
    - Darren
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    1 BN Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 2003-2013

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    We all recognize that the .30 carbine ammo is essentially a PISTOL round (not a rifle round such as .30-06, .303, .308 or even 30-30, etc) being fired our of a carbine (18") to give it more horsepower. In effect it was designed to extend the effective range for officers and support troops who might be carrying a Colt .32, .38, or .45 ACP. It turned out to be an exceptional intermediate range light weapon (25-100+ yds).

    IMHO it's probably the best "compromise" weapon ever devised (until the AR-15/M16icon era) effectively doing what a "carbine" is supposed to do: "be half pistol and half rifle," weighing in exactly between a 1911 Colt and an M1 Garrand.

    But like all compromises, it runs the risk of being decimated by both sides. We must cherish this gun for what it is, what is was for its time, and for what it still can do (remarkably today). To me a gun is, in some ways, like a woman -- some are beautiful, some are fun, some are good in the bedroom, others in the kitchen, and others on the dancefloor; some are accurate, some reliable, some easy to handle, some great partners, some powerful, some steady, some fast, some slow -- and some were designed by the enemy.
    Last edited by Seaspriter; 01-21-2016 at 07:11 PM.

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    Gunshot wounds are usually fatal from bleeding out. The oil tank empties and the pump loses prime. The difference in delivery is shock power. Getting hit by a baseball bat or shoved in the chest with a hand. The book "Blackhawk Down" tells of how the D boys were completely dissatisfied with the M16 stopping power. The 62gr steel core rounds would simply punch straight through. They described multiple hits with no effect beyond a flinch. Of course the wounded guy would eventually die, but he did not go down or stop (shove in the chest with a hand). Hits with the M14icon would instantly put the guy down (baseball bat). In Vietnam the 55gr bullet at a barely stable twist rate brought devastating results. The 62 gr round took most of that away.

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    All Good Points

    I enjoy the M1icon Carbine for what it is today and the history at the time of conflict. I don't really care if it was a feared battle implement capable if one shot kills at 40 meters or 400. I don't care if it was developed as a new infantry 'assault rifle' or just a more effective replacement for a pistol or a more convenient replacement for the M1 Rifle. But, I can tell you that the perception developed by an experienced combat infantryman of ANY weapon is more than just his casual, haphazard opinion. Right or wrong, he will have faith in (or fear of) a weapon, or not, based upon his own personal experiences and I don't believe this will change for the rest of his life.

    I would love to see a scientific study of maybe 1000 (or better even more) combat infantrymen from Korea (and Vietnam) asking pertinent questions about the use and effectiveness of M1 Carbines, Garands , machine guns, enemy equipment, etc. AFAIK this was not done with WWII vets and that time is pretty much lost. Korean War veterans are not that far behind. When they are gone the real truths may never be known. ChipS

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    Allow me to steer the discussion in a slight direction for the purpose of thinking about weapon performance vs weapon opinion.

    Let's apply the same magnifying glass to the next caliber down, the .45 ACP fired from a non-pistol barrel. Take those Thompson's, M3 Grease guns, and even the 9mm subguns of similar vintage. Each round has lower ballistic "specs" than the .30 Carbine round, but each of these weapons seems to be held in the opinion as being good by their users.

    Now each sub gun, will feature full-auto and a generous magazine, and would generally be used in short bursts, but did those traits alone lend a more positive opinion to those weapons, possibly even over-confidence? The M2 carbine was full-auto and later offered with a more generous magazine, but the stigma of the round underperforming still maintains. Does the rattle of an automatic regardless of caliber inspire confidence and fear greater than single pops of semi-automatic?
    - Darren
    1 PL West Nova Scotia Regiment 2000-2003
    1 BN Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry 2003-2013

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