Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers

[Sentryduty]

True, but on the counter point side B-17's were sometimes loaded with gift crates of oranges on the trans Atlantic flyover, so who's to really know exactly what precious or mundane cargo might have been on every one of those flights.

Gifts reference @ 4:30 timestamp

[Seaspriter]

beloved No4(T)s getting aircraft space.

I really don't know, it's not mentioned in Without Warning, but I seem to recall someone on Milsurps spoke to someone years ago who did state they were sent in air cargo. Does anyone recall this mention or is my mind imagining things (could be -- I have a vivid imagination!)

[Peter Laidler]

Infantry rifles......, air cargo......... I think your last 5 words sum it up. H&H were churning them out, all 26 THOUSAND of them. This'd hardly make a couple of thousand more from abroad a deal breaker - or strategic war winner requiring air cargo consideration. Just my opinion of course based on what my mum used to call '.....the bleedin obvious.......'

[Seaspriter]

Infantry rifles......, air cargo......... I think your last 5 words sum it up.

Well, at least I learned I was not hallucinating. There was a post a year ago:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post325714
which stated (FWIW):
"In the current huge pile of records I am working through, it appears that the sniper rifles from Canadaicon were shipped "via bomber" and not "on the water" as most common material. Found that revelation most interesting."

"I have some of the records and once I get them digitized so they are more readable I will share them."

What will peak your ire is that it was posted by our venerable comrade Warren, who we all want to give us details (that seem buried in his computer or a pirate treasure chest on Oak Island). So we won't hold our breath, and speculation won't spawn facts.

[Peter Laidler]

............... Say no more! Another promise from Warrens 'archive'

[Surpmil]

Infantry rifles......, air cargo......... I think your last 5 words sum it up. H&H were churning them out, all 26 THOUSAND of them. This'd hardly make a couple of thousand more from abroad a deal breaker - or strategic war winner requiring air cargo consideration. Just my opinion of course based on what my mum used to call '.....the bleedin obvious.......'

Well, at least I learned I was not hallucinating. There was a post a year ago:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread....l=1#post325714
which stated (FWIW):
"In the current huge pile of records I am working through, it appears that the sniper rifles from Canada were shipped "via bomber" and not "on the water" as most common material. Found that revelation most interesting."

"I have some of the records and once I get them digitized so they are more readable I will share them."

That'll be interesting, and I suppose it is possible in light of the fact that the vast bulk of the H&H production seems to have been in 1944 and 1945, just like Long Branch.

In "Without Warning" it is mentioned that, "...a survey of British Army sniper equipment taken in November 1943 revealed that there were 3,756 rifles with No.32 scopes, 900 rifles with Patt. '18 scopes and 450 rifles with Aldis scopes [Alex Martin P14 conversions - not all with Aldis scopes] still on issue to the British Army." The Canadian Army was not up to establishment in No4(T)s until around January 1944 according to the same source and their requirement was about 1400 rifles.

Or in other words, H&H had produced about 2353 No4(T)s by November of 1943 since starting some time around Sept. 1942. (Assuming the number of 1403 trials No4's converted at RSAF(E) is correct) Skennerton says "from 22nd September, 1942 Holland & Holland took up the conversions of Britain's No.4 sniping rifles..."

The next contract was for 12,100 units, and it was signed on 13th February 1943, for a rate of 800 per month. It was often the case that these wartime contracts were not signed until after work had commenced. More orders were later placed with Hollands, and 100 of the last contract were passed on to B.S.A Shirley.

(The British Sniper, p.111.)] Skennerton doesn't say how many were ordered in the first contract unfortunately.

So assuming about 13 months working time, that is about 45 rifles per week output. It looks as though the supply of No32 MkI scopes far out-stripped the fitting of them to rifles in the UK. That is based on the fact that HBMCo. began production in 1941 and like Watson & Kodak had produced thousands by the end of 1942, based on serials and dates on surviving scopes. By the end of 1943, No32 MkI production must have amounted to at least 10,000 units based on serial numbers alone.

If output from H&H was anywhere near 800 rifles per month in 1943, plainly many times more than 2353 would have been on issue in November 1943!

The reference to 100 of the final contract being assigned to BSA Shirley does not fit with the rifles that have surfaced since the war AFAIK. I believe it is more likely that 100 was assigned to BSA in 1942 or 43. Perhaps these are some of the rifles that show no "T", "TR" or "S51" marks, which we generally assume are early H&H production?

It would have made sense in 1942/3 to diversify production, or at least get production set up at a second location in case of bomb or accidental damage to H&H's production. At the end of the war there was no reason to begin production anywhere else.

That all being the case, there might well have been a certain urgency to get rifles to the UK quickly in 1943, since P14s with AJP target sights or Warner & Swasey sights grafted on, were not exactly "competitive" in 1943/44. Hopefully Warren can give us some idea of the dates of these shipments at least.

By November 1943 Canadian troops had been in Sicily and Italy for a couple of months. 1st Canadian Infantry Division included nine regiments of infantry, the 5th Armoured Division included another four, and there was also the 1st Special Service Force Battalion. Colin, do you know what the scale of issue was per battalion in the Canadian Army at that time?

There is one other possibility of course: H&H "churning them out" at the reputed 800 per month and the army supply people promptly putting them into store where they remained for the duration: "You've already got a 'sniper's rifle', you won't get a new issue until that one wears out or is lost. We'll leave them in stores until the war is over and then sell them off for pennies on the pound, that way nothing will be wasted!"

[Roger Payne]

Rob, could the 100 rifles attributed to BSA in 1944 be the elusive 100 rifles in .22" LR? I know they existed as one or two of them were sighted years ago at (IIRC) the SASC & at Shrivenham, although by then they had had the forends cut back & lacked their scopes. I gather they were not marked in the usual 'M47/C 1944' style either.

[Seaforth72]

Surpmil wrote: "By November 1943 Canadian troops had been in Sicily and Italy for a couple of months. 1st Canadian Infantry Division included nine regiments of infantry, the 5th Armoured Division included another four, and there was also the 1st Special Service Force Battalion. Colin, do you know what the scale of issue was per battalion in the Canadian Army at that time?"

The scale of issue in mid-WWII for British and Canadian Armies was 8 sniper equipments per infantry battalion and 6 per reconnaissance battalion. They were often grouped under Battalion HQ under command of the Intelligence Officer.
Clive Law calculated 78 rilfes per infantry division and 38 per armoured division. [WITHOUT WARNING by Clive Law, second printing, p. 36]. Canada fielded three infantry divisions and two armoured divisions overseas plus odds and sods.There were three more infantry divisions back in Canada plus odds and sods. The Canadian Army Pacific Force was being created in 1945 to fight the Japanese but the war ended before it was fully constituted.

The Canadians serving with the 1 Special Service Battalion, aka 2 Canadian Parachute Bn., were part of the First Special Service Force. This formation combined Canadian and U.S. forces with great success and earned the nickname "The Devil's Brigade." They were equipped with U.S. weapons. I have not yet seen evidence of them having sniper rifles on issue, but if they did, they would have been Springfield M1903A4 with M73B1 Weaver (330) scopes.

[Surpmil]

Rob, could the 100 rifles attributed to BSA in 1944 be the elusive 100 rifles in .22" LR? I know they existed as one or two of them were sighted years ago at (IIRC) the SASC & at Shrivenham, although by then they had had the forends cut back & lacked their scopes. I gather they were not marked in the usual 'M47/C 1944' style either.

I know nothing about those Roger and I suppose without some unique markings it would be impossible to prove that such were not simply No.7 barrels grafted onto No.4(T) actions(?)

We all know how common and cheap No4(T)s were at one time...I saw an advert for a "Whittaker Special" and it was mentioned that he had chopped up about 150 No.4(T)s when making his blessed target rifles. I wonder where all those pads went!?

[Seaspriter]

We all know how common and cheap No4(T)s were at one time...I saw an advert for a "Whittaker Special" and it was mentioned that he had chopped up about 150 No.4(T)s when making his blessed target rifles. I wonder where all those pads went!?

Thanks for this lead. Here's any interesting story ( see pics at: Enfield Rifles ) Whitaker Special: Enfield No4T Target Rifle
£495

This is one of the 117 Target Rifles manufactured by (Bert) Herbert Whitaker between 1973 & 1976

Converted from a No4T Sniper Rifle Whitaker was a trained engineer and spent most of his working life in government service, which started in 1935
when he went to work at the Royal Small Arms factory Enfield as an examiner / inspector.

He had an interesting career in small arms whilst in government service from chief examiner and involvement in the
development of the EM2 & FN rifles and also the 30mm Aden.

He became heavily involved in experimental & prototype weapon systems.

Later on he also provided an advisory service to the R.S.A.F Enfield on target Rifle Development.

He retired in 1972 and set up business as a Gunsmith building specialised Target Rifles.

Whitaker was a keen rifle shooter of some note during the 1960s & up to 1976 where he served almost every year on the GB Team
in the Palma Matches and various other International matches including Canada, America & South Africa.

In the Dominion Rifle Matches he came 2nd with his Whitaker Rifle, however his team mate came 1st again also with a Whitaker rifle.

His gunsmithing career only lasted a few years before his death in1976. He died in his sleep at Camp Perry whilst there
with the GB shooting team.

The Whitaker rifles are based on a vastly Modified No4 Action, with the butt socket milled away to enable the use of a one piece stock.
This gave the action flatbed however action draws were still used as the recoil contact points.

The action was still fixed using the original front trigger guard screw supplemented by a secondary screw attached to the remaining top section of the butt socket, fairly similar to the Mauser action.

A new 7.62mm barrel was used and special proofed to 20T, which is now the norm for 7.62/.308 proof.

The trigger is also modified to give two adjustments, the trigger pull weight is now adjustable due to the use of a standard
compression spring, and the two stage trigger also has finite adjustment.

This rifle, number 072 is a rather nice example and like many others Bert Whitaker built on ex No4T Sniper Rifle Actions
and fitted with Brindle Match Sights