What happened to P14 rifles made in US for Britain?

[HHart]

Hi ... am a new member and an advanced collector of milsup weapons. Live in Virginia, retired Federal Govt officer. Seeking HELP from knowledgeable P14 experts.

I own a remarkable .303 P14 rifle, made by Winchester, in absolutely perfect condition. I bought it from a well-known dealer, who states it (and several other similar P14 rifles) came from the REMINGTON collection. I understand that 1.2 million P14s were made by all 3 US manufactures for Britain - before all production was shifted to the Model 1917 "Enfields."

I an trying to find out what happened to all the .303's shipped to the British. Does anyone know ? Pls email me at hphart@hughes.net, or respond on MilSurps. (problem with latter is I am not sure I can find a posted response.) Very grateful for assistance.

Information

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[pickax]

Here is a great historical write up I found on the web on an earlier project. The author summarizes the works of several books on the subject. The info you seek is towards the end of part 3.
http://www.vgca.net/education/TheUKP...2014-09-17.pdf

[Frederick303]

Major Reynolds of the 1960 Enfield book wrote that a large number of the cord worn and damaged rifles from home guard/RAF anti-aircraft/ training commands use were dumped at sea. This was in an article he published in the American rifleman circa late 1960s. He does not give a figure but for some reason the figure 300~400,000 dumped at sea seemed to be circulation when I was a young chap first interested in to topic, in the early 1980s. The figure was supposed to be about 1/2 of the rifles left in stock after all arms sent overseas prior to 1958. Collectors I spoke to at the time (circa 1981 to 1982) were fairly sure the figures dumped were much larger, as fairly few P14 rifles came over tot he US of A in the 1958 to 1968 time period, and some of them came out of the Spanish 1959~1960 sale. Certainly P14 rifles are kind of rare, you see something like 4 SMLE rifles for every P14 rifle.

The only confirmation I have of dumping seem of this was an comment in the book deadly business, which states that after the first larger order for ~900,000 Enfields, Sam Cummings got a call from the MOD saying they had 300,000 obsolete Enfields readied for dumping at sea, which had already had the wooden cases drilled which he could have on the same terms as the previous 900,000 (of which Interams got between 60 and 75 percent, the other rifles being bought by Parker Hale).

Now I have no idea if these Enfield were all P14 rifles, but the evidence they were dumping them at seas is hard to argue against.

As far as who got them prior to 1958 the following armies were known to have them:

Greece : small numbers, some imported into US of A in late 1980s by century arms.
Portugal: small numbers, used in GOA by customs police, lost to India in 1961
Spain: small numbers supplied by Russia during civil war, almost all in very poor condition. What remained sold to Interarms in 1959~1960.
Estonia ~40,000, supplied by UK in 1919/1921, lost to Russian in 1940, most likely lost in the 1941 east front disaster.
Lithuania same as above, figures I forget
Ukraine: supplied to whites in 1920 time frame, lost to Russia, small numbers exported to Spain in 1936
Singapore: Some were on hand in Feb 1942, as at the battle box museum there is rusted up example of one that was found on the site. At that time the P14 was the issue rifle to anti-aircraft artillery.

India: supposed to have been supplied 100,000 directly from Remington in 1917. Based on the rifles that have come out of India, they were likely from the Baldwin works in Chester, not out of Ilion (ERA marked). Some sold to Springfield sporters in the late 1980/1990s in India police sales.
Pakistan: some of the India rifles ended up in Pakistan post 1947. Some imported by Century arms in the early 1990s
Afghanistan: some of the Paki rifles ended up there and have been seized in the war on terror

South Africa: Some were on issue for home defense in WWII. South Africans even made a bayonet for it. no idea what happened to them.

[browningautorifle]

300~400,000 dumped at sea

Kind of sad really...that's a lot.

[Promo]

Pictures of your rifle would be highly appreciated. Is the stock still marked IW in a circle?

The thing that sounds strange to me is that a WINCHESTER made rifle would be in the REMINGTON collection. Since they produced these rifles themselves, wouldn't they rather keep their own rifle than to keep one from a competitor?

[WarPig1976]

they were likely from the Baldwin works in Chester,

This is a misconception. Baldwin didn't build rifles. Remington Arms of Delaware did at it's Eddystone PA plant which was built by Baldwin on Baldwin property through a corporate deal. The buildings where built in such a way that after rifle production ceased the buildings could be turned over to Baldwin for the production of Locomotives. A few still stand today.
Sorry to get nit picky..

[oldfoneguy]

I have a Remington made P14 built mid 1916 and refurbished to the Weedon specifications in early WWII, it's not import marked meaning it has been in the US prior to 1968. That narrows down the location of 2 of them anyway.

[Gingercat]

I recently purchased a Winchester MkI* which escaped Weedon alteration and still has it's volley sights. The previous owner for some reason polished the lower band, trigger guard, bottom magazine plate and sling swivels to white, but other than that it's in great shape, with the bore gauging at .3035. (Excuse the sling - since fitted correctly!)

A large number in the UK were eventually converted to 762 NATO calibre as target rifles, but these are now unpopular and very low price as a result, compared to original military specification examples.

Regards

Mike

[Flying10uk]

I have a E.R.A. P14, in U.K. deactivated form, and it is in lovely un-messed condition with original woodwork. I am not able to post pictures of it at the moment but may be able to do so at some point in the future if I ever get to grips with the use of a digital camera.

[Frederick303]

I did not realize that Eddystone was its own separate bough. I thought it was a part of Chester. very interesting