South African or Indian markings on LSA MkIII?

Hi All,

I've aquired a fairly intreging 1917 LSA MKIII. The barrel is definitely South African (and pristine condition, as is most of the metalwork - with some strange discrepencies - see the technical question below). Trying to work out some unusual markings on the Knox form and the butt. Firstly, on the butt, I have a butt rondel with ISA - Ian Skennerton has Ishpore as SAI, but does indicate that there may be diffent content of the rondel dependent on era. While I'm fairly convinced that this is an Ishapore marking, it does raise a question when looking at the knox form. This has S.A.P stamped over what could be a U arrow, but only half formed, so not convinced it is the South African Union mark. Is this also Indian? First assumption, of course, is that the SAP is South African Police, but given relations between the two countries were, at best, frosty from 1948 onwards, it does beg the question as to how we get a mix of SA and Indian marks on the receiver and butt. Is the SAP and the weird semi-U not South African, but Indian (Simple explaination then on the barrel which is South African, could have recently been replaced by a civvie owner)? Or is the butt rondel (highly unlikely) related to SAI as in SA Infantry?

The other question I have is technical. I discovered that the centre barrel band is missing - not sure what the logic there is - assume that whoever replaced the barrel would have understood that the barrel retaining band should have been there, so was it deliberately ommited? Anyone come across that before on Indian or SA rifles? Trying to float the barrel completely or similar? Got a bit of a farmyard smell when the trader told me it was super accurate in spite of the missing band. Surely such a departure from SMLE design would have very unpredicable results with the light barrel? Also spotted the fore-end cap was missing, which I suspect could have been the result of a whippier than normal barrel, but would be interested to know if there was any thought behind this? Not a show-stopper as will get those bits sorted - intending to put Gibbs sights on this rifle, so not going to have anything that is not 100% in that area.

It appears that your rifle has seen South African military service and was allocated a spare Ishapore butt in the process. Although I have not as yet found archival proof I believe that South Africa received a batch of Ishapore rifles from India during WW II. I have had three in my collection with SA military markings (dated 1911, 1940 and 1941) and come across others.

As an aside, has it not been established that the SA marked barrels we're actually BSA dispersal manufactured?

Surviving examples show that the South African Military was a long-time purchaser of .303 commercial barrels going right back to the era of the Magazine Lee Enfield (Long Lee). However, from about May, 1943 it started producing its own SMLE barrels at the Delfos factory.

TerryLee - from your research are you aware of any major Weedon-type refurb program for the UDF rifles at any stage? As I say, the metalwork (and fore-end) on this rifle is close to pristine, with just the ishapore butt showing signs of wear, which is surprising given the 1917 manufacture date, so wonder if it was brushed up? Was in SA(N)DF 87-95, and remember the armoury of the Commando unit we worked out of for a period on the KZN South Coast in the early-mid '90's still had a number of SMLE's in the racks - including .22 trainer conversions - amongst the R1's and R4's. Wish I had looked at them more closely back then for manufacturer details - but they also seemed to be in good nick - can remember commenting on it at the time as I had expected rifles with 70-plus years of service to have had more of a battering. (I know there had previously been a big sell-off of surplus .303's in the mid-80's, but seems the Commando (Reservist) units still retained a number, certainly into the '90's)

During my research I do not recollect seeing anything covering refurbishment programs except quite a few documents relating to the upgrading of Long Lees to SMLE configuration ("No.1 Converted") I have a fair number of South African marked MLEs and SMLEs in my collection and most of them show obvious signs of routine maintenance, typically barrel replacement with BSA commercials. Some have also have parts of their woodwork replaced.