german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

Is this a real or fake marked SMLE??On another board everbody said it is fake.Not the right stamps,not stamped in the right spot etc.

It is a 1917 Enfield,all matching including original enfield marked wood.
It went throught australian FTR MA/52.The bayonet lug,middle band,safty strap and barrel were replaced with australian marked pieces.The yellow paint indicates cadet use at some time.
All the other post war FTR's from australia I have seen had replaced wood, why not this one?
Everyone said if it went throught FTR the german markings should have been removed.It would not have been issued post war with german markings.

The germans must have captured 1000's of Enfields early in the war.
Are there any legimate german marked enfields out there?





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I haven't seen any officially marked ones but I have seen an 'unofficially' marked Bren gun that is marked on the gun body with stamps, in true old German lettering, to the effect that it belonged to the Hannover volksturm or home guard, such as they were. It was/is an early double dovetail 1939 gun so was probably captured at Dunkirk. It's previous history isn't well known or documented but certainly since 1955ish it was on the books of the Wiltshire Yeomanry and then into Cadet Force use, then DP'd and regularly covered in the usual black paint until it went in to be properly converted to L54A1 spec. Only then did the stamp marking become apparent.

And don't worry Bren Fiends, it's been tagged by the powers that be and will come to Warminster

I noticed on National Geographic channel yesterday that German uniformed soldiers were carrying No1 MkIII rifles. It was only the one episode of several that followed back to back. The soldiers, may or may not have been German. It was likely they were from some other Axis country.
They looked like they were either prison guards (POW) or maybe railroad or highway police. Hard to say. The time frame was only a minute or so. I've seen this segment, once before.
I've also heard it rumored that Axis forces, augmented their armaments and short supply of Mausers, by issuing captured equipment to rear echelon troops. It was common on the Russian front and I know a lot of captured French, Polish, Czech and Belgian equipment was utilised as well. Why not perfectly good NoI Mk III rifles.

Jean Plamandon had several "Austrian" police marked NoI MkIII rifles for sale last year.

They had huge quantities of Czech and Polish equipment, and it took the German service cartridge.

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Originally Posted by superbee

Is this a real or fake marked SMLE?? On another board everbody said it is fake. Not the right stamps,not stamped in the right spot etc.

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Ok, I have to ask ... :lol:

Bear with me as I'm not an Enfield collector, but if there are people who claim it's a fake, why would anyone in their right mind go to all that trouble to fake German markings on what is essentially a cheap old SMLE? :confused:

It can't be for profit as it just isn't worth that much and you'd think that anyone with the stamps to do it, would certainly realize it would be a tough sell to an Enfield collector crowd. :lol:

It's one of the best novelty and most unique pieces I've seen on here, well, of course next to John Sukey's Collection of Oddities and Unusual Pieces (click here).

Regards,
Badger

The other board is Gunboards and I went and asked the guys from the 98k Forum over there to come to the Lee Enfield Forum and comment.
The fake Waffenamt-ish eagle, aka "Fatboy", that is marked on this rifle has been intermittently available as a set of "antiqued" stamps on e-bay for a couple of years---and has been showing up on cooked German rifles during the same period.
In fact, the whole Third Reich artifact thing is so full of fakery, the experienced collectors there are out of credulity and very, very good at spotting them.
So I got a couple of the best to come and explain things---which they did in no uncertain terms.
Strange markings stamped on SMLE (pics added))

Go and see.
-----krinko

PS. Badger, there are lots of people who will pay a premium to get a German capture marked rifle. I had a legitimate 1939 MAS 36 with the proper Waffenamt, in the proper place---bought for $80 and sold for $400.

The possibility of being real does exist, whether yours is I don't know.

I've seen several pics of german troops on patrol carrying enfields in occupied village/s in France.
They were captioned, if I roughly remember, as captured weapons either from Dunkirk, and for some reason I also keep thinking of that Canadian debacle/invasion whose name I forget. There was some comment about 303 either being available ammo to german troops in the west, or in the event of a fight, the commonality of needing 303 and maybe getting some from invading forces, and as a result they only saw German service in the western areas ie France. I'm not sticking up for this, just remembering the post or what ever I saw.
If there are such a thing as genuine Austrian enfields, why not this?

Believe it or not they do exist. A small quantity of BOTH Bren's and No.4 Lee Enfields were imported into Canada back in the mid to late 80's that had Nazi markings on them. As to whether the one in question is kosher or not I'd not venture a guess, however I did see the Nazi parked ones and kicked my **s for not buying a Bren at the time... I estimate there was around 20 or so such marked Brens in the peoples republik du Kanada and another small amount (under 50) of No.4 Lee Enfields. Perhaps the furniture ended up on an FTR'd rifle...never say never with a Lee Enfield.......

This wouldn't be another "AFAC" special would it?...

Curly

FTR rifles leave the factory like NEW and although I'm not as familiar with the Lithgow FTR system as I am with our own (but even then, was VERY familiar with it in the 60's.......) the notion that this one didn't have the woodwork linished clean is simply beyond comprehension. Is there a bit of confusion creeping in on the forum as elsewhere it's been refered to as a P14 or a 17? I have to say that I NEVER saw a P14 or 17 in a school cadet corps in Australia although I have to also admit that I never saw many Cadet rifles either