Carcano Rifleing to Bullet interaction
Sorry, Double Post...Could not delete Posting Completely...no "Delete Post " Function visible
Doc AV
Carcano Rifleing to Bullet interaction
Just like the Interaction between Bore, Groove and Bullet diameter as occurs in the Austrian Mannlicher series of rifles ( and also the French Lebel and Berthier, the Portuguese Kropatschek, and the Type 45 Siamese)...all users of Long, cylindrical Bullets with potentially Large bearing surfaces, the Italians obviously had a similar Interaction in their 6,5 calibre.
The basis of all this was the "undersized" (WRT groove depth) Bullet using "Base Upswage Obturation ( in artillery terms, a "driving Band") to give the bullet the necessary engagement in the rifling together with obturation of the groove depth, to allow for full utilization of the gas pressure in Propelling the Bullet.
The rest of the Bullet cylinder (jacketed) was lightly engraved, or in the case of "two diameter" bullets, not engraved at all; as it travelled down the bore...only the Upswaging of the (Hollow) base (of a FMJ) would grip the lands and groFves.
NOTE that this principle works BEST with Open base FMJ projectiles (Both cylindrical RN and to a lesser extent, short Spirepointed FMJs with Flat bases (such as the 1905 German "S" projectile (154 grains) when "cross used" in Barrels with Groove diameters larger than .324"" (say French .326 or Austrian .329).
The relationship between Bullet diameter ("say" .318-319) in a Commision 88, having Bore of .311 and grooves from.320-322 ( "z" type freshened rifling) is a case in Point.
The same applies to the M95 Austrian Mannlicher, a "True" 8mm Bore .315, Groove .329, M90/93 Cylindrical steel jacket bullet, .324 +/- .0005. Thus the problem in 1930, with the upgrading to a FMJBT Spire point, they had to increase the diameter of the bullet to .329-.330, as there was insufficent base to upswage, and thye actual contact area of the jacket was much reduced by the Spire and BT shape. So Gas obtruation was achieved by the use of the full diameter(Groove) Bullet.
Now all these rifles(Carcano included) were developed at about the same time (1888-1895) and the Theory of Bullet to Rifling relationships had already been well thrashed out by both Theoreticians such as Hebler, Lorenz, and Rubin in Switzerland, and practically by Baron Von Mannlicher in Austria: The French and the Italians also had information from the Scientific Publications of the Swiss in this regard.
The Germans, of course, developing a rifle And cartridge by a "Kommission" ended up with a "Camel" with certain problems (the original Kom.88 Bullet was .318, and the rifling was also .318...leading to excessive friction, pressure spikes , and barrel wear...this combuined with some Poor barrel steel, led to the "JudenFlinte" scandal ( more imagination than fact) and the subsequent change in both barrel steel material ("neue materiale" or "n.m." markings, and the "z" deepening of the grooves from 318-319 to .321-322, whilst leaving the Bore at the original 7.9mm (.311). These modifications solved all the problems.
This is my simplification of information from mostly German sources of the time...there has been much (English) language controversy on this whole ".318" controversy.
I had not heard that the Italians suffered similar problems;
I have found in reloading for my Carcano rifles (I use Pulled Military projectiles, or FMJs from other sources, such as Norma, which does(did) make a 6,5 139 grain FMJBT, with a fairly large base. I have found these do function reasonably well, although a bit undersized ( .264.)
the 6,5 Swedish FMJ with flat base ( 100 grain) training bullet made by Norma works well in Carcano rifling, as the base expands well to "engage" the grooves.
Where I found problems was in the use of Soft Points and hollow points, Flat based or not, because the bases were completely sealed by jacket, and did not "swage up" as much. This, as well as the diameter differences, could explain the inconsistencies in performance.
The same could appply to the .267 Hornady projectiles developed by a couple of Keen shooters within the Hornady organisation, whom I have had the pleasure of E-conversing at the time of the Carcano Bullet's development.
BTW, the Carcano 162 grain RNFMJ, is also a type of "Two diameter" Bullet, with only the rear end section being .267-8; most of the cylinder is actually more like .263, from the ogive down.
This may not be noticeable on some of the Wartime production projectiles, as dies wore out,... but the same principle is used on several French Bullets, which had "double diameters" even though they were Spire and BT (Balle D and Balle N).
It seems that if the Italian designers of the Carcano system had problesm with the Bullet vis-a-vis the rifling, it was minor, because all research has failed to allude to this; other problems such as Soft case heads,(fixed by "Working the brass" a bit more with the added "ring" in the head) Primers Popping out in rifles ( fixed by recutting the bolt face to allow the actual contact surface to "peen" the primer Pocket shut, using the "ring" formed by the previous "heading " operation in the cartridge case; this groove around the bolt face also acted as a gas escape route, if a primer did "fail".
Crimps were added to the neck of the case (triangular stab crimps) to prevent soldiers "improving" their cartridge powder loads; and so on. Nothing in the trials and Unit proving exercises during 1892 and 1900 showed any major "bullet" problems.
Perhaps the only problem encountered was in Africa, where the long pencil like bullet tended to go straight through Native Rebels, and hardly affect them...so much so that even during the 1936-41 Italian occupation of AOI (East Africa), Spent 6,5 FMJs were routinely " picked up" by the natives for reloading ( they did it with 8x50R projectiles as well, from the War Booty M95s issued to the Askari ( Italian native Troops) and the Dubats (Native Irregulars under Italian officers). It was infact this "penetration and not Lethality" problem that led to the development in 1937-38 of the 7,35 cartridge, with a "fibre pointed" Bullet copying the British Mark VII design, to increase deformability of the projectile at close range (M38s were sighted at 300 metres or so, fixed).
Getting back to the Carcano reloading problem, I hope you guys in the US and Canada can get to the bottom of this...In Australia, we are stuck with factory 6,5 with .264 Bullets,(Norma and Prvi-Partizan,) and no supply of Hornady .268 Bullets in sight.
Some use Pulled Military bullets --a lot of the Italian Milsurp ammo is now "dead", so Bullet and Powder is Pulled, loaded into new cases (Boxer primed) and shoots quite well.
Regards,
Doc AV
AV ballistics.
Brisbane Down Under.