Advice needed.............

I need some serious advice from my brother and sister milsurpers. In the past week I have had dealings with two dealers(#1FFL) whom I thought were pretty honest, but I found out how wrong I and fortunatly able to find out before buying from one of them.I caught one in a lie, and the other bashes his competitors continually. In a manner of speaking I'm still new to collecting, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can. What is the advantage to collecting just one type of rifle? Why not all bolt action? They have quite a history themselves. How can I be sure that a particular FFL is reputable. To those who have been here a while, Is buying from these board members safe? I don't trust the internet. I have been burned once. Let me know what I should do. You can use one of my Emails

paulm66@optonline.net or leave a message on the board

Thanks
Paul M

Edit: Pics added by moderator...

Paul....

When you bought this rifle, was it represented as a military collector's piece, or an old hunting/sporting rifle? :confused:

Regards,
Badger

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Originally Posted by paulm

I need some serious advice from my brother and sister milsurpers. In the past week I have had dealings with two dealers(#1FFL) whom I thought were pretty honest, but I found out how wrong I and fortunatly able to find out before buying from one of them.I caught one in a lie, and the other bashes his competitors continually. In a manner of speaking I'm still new to collecting, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can. What is the advantage to collecting just one type of rifle? Why not all bolt action? They have quite a history themselves. How can I be sure that a particular FFL is reputable. To those who have been here a while, Is buying from these board members safe? I don't trust the internet. I have been burned once. Let me know what I should do. You can use one of my Emails

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Welcome to collecting milsurps. There's a lot of dishonest people out there, and a lot of people willing to "pretty up" a rifle to try and get a few hundred dollars out of it come sales time.

The big bennifit to specializing in one type of rifle is that you get REALLY familiar with what you need to look for to spot fakes. This is doubly true for anything Nazi and, increasingly, anything USGI that doesn't come straight from the CMP. Faked stamps, faked proof marks, they're all out there. If you're buying something not too terribly expensive you can usually avoid the worst of the forgeries - no one is going to bother faking WaA stamps on a $220 Russian captured K98k for example. You do, however, need to be able to spot the cheaper guns so that when you see some random guy at a gunshow selling the above RC K98k - which you can order at AimSurplus for around $200 - as a $600 "original NAZI rifle! Real swastikas!" you'll know to pass.

Really, the key is to just educate yourself. Everyone gets ripped off eventually, and everyone eventually gets some amazing deals by knowing what to spot. Read some books, talk to people on forums, and pay attention to your rifles. Get a feel for how 60 year old stock cartouches should look (here's a hint: if it's so crisp it looks stamped yesterday, it was) If, in your experience, something looks "fishy" or "too good" just pass on it.


I've actually found that online retailers are usually the MOST trustworthy, at least when compared to sales in small shops or face to face sales at gunshows. Online retailers built up a business with customers across the country, customers who are usually well-versed with the internet, usually read and post on at least one board like this, and who will be VERY fast to spread the bad word if they feel cheated. Online auction sites like gunbroker.com tend to be pretty above the board as well - just stick ot the well known sellers with positive feedback and you'll be OK. If you're in the US get your C&R liscence - it makes ordering guns online a LOT more hassle free and a LOT cheaper, all for $35 and about 10 minutes out of your day.

Shop keepers, in general, though are not too good. When I was first starting out I got burned pretty badly by one. They have narrow margins, small potential customer bases, and are getting squeezed out more and more by online retailers who are faster, have a better selection, and who are kept more honest. The temptation's simply high for them to misrepresent (or let your own enthusaism misrepresent for you) the conditon or actual value of a rifle to squeeze a few more bucks out of a sale. I'm sure there are store owners that are different, I'm sure everyone here has a favorite, heck, I'm sure some of the posters here may even be honest store owners - but the reality is that you need to be just as wary - if not more so - at an actual store than you do at a gun show.

Hope that helps a bit. If you could tell us more about what kind of guns you're looking into 'm sure we could recommend some books. It's better to spend a few bucks on references and save some money in the long term than get burned - these days, when moving onto a totally new type of rifle, my rule of thumb is to spend about 10% of what I'm looking to spend on the rifle on books to help me learn about it.

Books, books, books, and read, read, read.....Know your subject if you are going to get into collecting. I was told over half a century ago: buy a gun, buy a book...and it still holds true today. Even more so today, as it is possible to fake anything and some are very good fakes. You never know with anything. I know "collectors" who, the only book they own is the Blue Book of Gun Values and by God if it is there that is what they want for it...if selling. If buying, well, they all have amnesia as to prices, and have NO idea where to look, but it has got to be worth $50.00 ....

Not sure how prevalent this practice is now but sellers used to offer a "3 day inspection period with money back if not satisfied" on guns & other items. That gives the buyer a chance to inspect, close up, a rifle bought from afar & determine how close to what was advertised the rifle actually is.

The inspection period, such as it is, is usually seen only for "real" [read high ticket] collectors items, not for inexpensive milsurps regardless of whether they are collectible to some people or not.

The best defense against fraud, as always, is to learn. Read books, look at guns, make friends with other collectors and look at their pieces. Beware of high prices, extravagant claims ("belonged to Hitler"; "Patton's own Garand rifle"; "M1911A1 carried by U.S. Grant at Gettysburg") and nonsense about markings. I once saw a U.S.&S. M1911A1 with the marking misspelled. The seller haughtily informed me that "they were in a hurry, there was a war on." I never knew a roll stamp to make a mistake, war or no war; the gun was a fake.

And compare prices. I have seen a Luger at a gun show with a price of $1200, and an identical one a few feet away for $800.

As to German WaA marks on Russian capture rifles, the Russians generally did not bother to remove them, so a RC K.98k probably would have all its German marks as intact as refinishing would allow, though parts might be mismatched. Some countries (Yugoslavia) did obliterate the German marks, especially the eagle/swastika acceptance stamp, but not all did.

Jim

To add what the others have said... if you are spending your hard earned money, it is in YOUR best interest to become a subject expert in your chosen area of collecting. Funds expended on quality reference material will reap larger rewards when it is time to buy... I have a veritable library of reference books that were expensive, but have saved me money in the long run. It is not unlike hunting... know your quarry, don't settle for the first one that comes along, and you must be willing to drop the hammer when the right one comes along.

It has been my experience that many (not all, but many) FFL dealers are simply content to separate you from your funds. Caveat emptor!

Nice old rifle - is it a peabody martini?