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Gents I recently picked up a M 1861 made by the Trenton loco works in 1863. I have a couple of questions and I hope someone there will have an answer. After dissasembling my rifle I discovered several markings on the breech end of the barrel, surrounding the tang plug.
in no particular order they are as follows. Z 3s08 2 with a line over it.
Incidentally is the tang plug/screw supposed to come out of the barrel easily?Attachment 20078Attachment 20077
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncblksmth1
Most definitely not! The experience with pistons - which should be removed for cleaning after every shooting session - is that if they are left in place for some time, hot gases, combustion products, carbonized lubricants etc will normally ensure that the screwed thread is more-or-less fused shut, and it can take a bath in really hot water to be able to remove them with a well-fitting T-handled key. A tang plug is even firmer, and can even require the application of serious heat to remove it.
So if the plug comes out without any effort, I suspect one of two things:
1) The rifle was never fired after initial assembly. Theoretically possible, but highly unlikely, and after 150 years I would still expect any threaded joint to have seized up.
2) At some time, the barrel + plug was dismantled and cleaned, and not fired since then. This is the more likely explanation.
As it is already apart, inspect the plug and barrel very thoroughly - there may have been some problem/ damage which required the dismantling - I once lost a wire brush down the "patent breech" of a percussion rifle, and a gunsmith had to apply heat and a sizeable torque to unplug it and extract the broken-off end of the brush. If it seems OK, reassemble plug and barrel with a smear of copper-paste, as used for high-temperature piping. There is usually a scribed line across the joint somewhere (often on the bottom) to help align plug and barrel when reassembling.
:wave:
Patrick, I do have to ask, where is the "piston" on a M1861 Rifle Musket?
And ncblksmth1, the answer is an empahtic "No!" The breachplug is never removed unless serious repair is required and then should only be done by an experienced gunsmith. The gun can be more than adequately cleaned with the plug in place.
Also, what are the markings on your lockplate?
Sorry all, I slipped into Engleutsch again. NIPPLE is what I meant!
The message was, if even a part that is supposed to be regularly removed becaomes baked in hard pretty quickly, then it is extremely unlikely that a breech plug (or indeed any threaded joint) is easily removable after 150 years.
Hence the conclusion that someone probably had a good reason to do so fairly recently, and it would be a good idea to check the serviceability of the barrel.
And in spite of my linguistic confusion, I am happy to see that you also agree that the plug should not be easily removable.
:wave:
Ah! I see. Using "old" American English, I call it the cone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
You are absolutely correct, if the breachplug can be removed by finger pressure only or even if it can be easily unscrewed using a vice and an 8 inch Crescent wrench, there is serious trouble ahead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
So, ncblksmth1 in answer to your question "Incidentally is the tang plug/screw supposed to come out of the barrel easily?", then no, most definitely not.
BTW, if I am not mistaken, your rifle musket was once the property of the State of New Jersey.
Markings on the lock: 1863 to the left of the hammer, "US Eagle" to the right and US over Trenton.Quote:
Originally Posted by gew8805
Markings on the barrel: V/P on side with eagle head. N.J. on a lower flat and 1863 on the upper flat. There is a Rp stamped on the bottom of the barrel and one more small mark I cant make out.
"1863 to the left of the hammer, "US Eagle" to the right and US over Trenton"
Thank you. Your rifle musket was made under one of two simultaneous contracts who were using the closed down Trenton Locomotive and Machine Manufacturing Company facilities:
(1) Mr. A.M. Burt - Burt was the head of the Trenton Arms Co. and he was awarded a contract for 50,000 M1861 Rifle Muskets on Dec. 26, 1861. Price to be paid was was $20.00 each. The contract was awarded not to the Trenton Arms Co. but directly to Mr. Burt himself. Arms were marked as you described.
(2) J.T. Hodge - Like A.M Burt above, a contract was also awarded to Mr. Hodge on Dec. 21, 1861 for 50,000 arms at $20.00 per stand. Mr. Hodge's arms were also marked like yours.
Trent and Hodge hoped to develop their business into a full sized armory, but it didn't work out as well as they hoped. As with most of the contractors, they had problems, financially and with machine acquisition and in the acquisition of parts that they were not capable of manufacturing. Together they eventually delivered a combined total of 21,995 arms out of a total of 100,000 contracted for.
For much more detailed information on the "Trenton" rifle muskets and all other contractors as well as those made by the Springfield Armory, see "The Rifled Musket" by Claud Fuller. Though published in 1958, it is still the best basic reference on the US Rifle musket that there is. It describes in detail the M1861, the Special M1861, the M1863 and the M1864. Also covered are non-standard rifle muskets delivered under contract by others in the early war period.
It is interesting that Mr. Fuller calls the M1855 - M1864 weapons "Rifled Muskets" instead of using the correct terminology of "Rifle Musket". Rifled muskets were considered by US Ordnance in the period as smoothbored muskets that had been rifled.
Can you show more pictures of your "Trenton"? If complete, it seems to be in better than average condition.