MixMasters v. ???

Just wondering what everyone's opinion is about MixMasters v. Original v. final product...

Is too too much emphasis placed upon having a rifle that all parts match in name v.a rifle which was manufactureed with mixed parts v.a rifle that was processed at an armory...

Why the does a rifle which most likely does not come from a single manufacturer garner high dollar consideration when most likely it was not processed as such - save Winchester.

I welcome your comments... and will stand corrected with reasonable explanation... However - it seems collection M1 Carbines is a crap shoot...

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Originally Posted by 63Vette

Just wondering what everyone's opinion is about MixMasters v. Original v. final product...

Is too too much emphasis placed upon having a rifle that all parts match in name v.a rifle which was manufactureed with mixed parts v.a rifle that was processed at an armory...

Why the does a rifle which most likely does not come from a single manufacturer garner high dollar consideration when most likely it was not processed as such - save Winchester.

I welcome your comments... and will stand corrected with reasonable explanation... However - it seems collection M1 Carbines is a crap shoot...

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Most M1 Carbines left the prime contractor with all prime contractor and sub-contractor parts. Some, like QHMC and a few others had major components supplied by other prime contractors, as they did not make those components. A good example would be barrels.

There are many "originals" out there, mostly in the hands of collectors, or as yet undiscovered. However, the overwhelming majority out there are "mixmasters" as a result of arsenal rebuilds during and after WWII. To me, carbine collectors fall in several categories:

1. Want an "original" with all original parts as if left the factory - rare.
2. "Bring backs" - a carbine that "supposedly" grandpa brought home.
3. Want a "correct" carbine, with parts as it "would have" left the factory - some may call that "restored."
4. Want a mixmaster that has been under U.S. gov't control since manufacture (sold by CMP) - assures all parts are USGI.
5. Want the most accurate shooter, and do not care about period correctness of parts, just the best parts for accuracy + all USGI.

There are probably more categories. Collectors will pay what "they" perceive a carbine is worth, regardless of the category they fall into. Again, the overwhelming majority of carbines were not manufactured as "mixmasters," and I'm not sure why you think that only Winchester used all Winchester manufacture or marked parts.

Vette,

Here is my two cents worth on carbine collecting. First, individual collectors chose what is important to them. Some focus on a carbine being "factory issue" correct while others look at how "rare" a particular receiver is. Others still look at the "where it has been" documentation. I wouldn't look at it as a crap shoot, but I would look at it as going to Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors. There are few real "collectables" and most carbines are "shooters" no matter what parts they wear.

** Warning, here comes the leacture part **

There were around 6 million of these wonderful weapons manufactured during the 3 1/2 production window in the middle of World War II. The majority of them were produced by companies that had little or no firearms manufacturing experience. There were "unique situations" which occurred during this production window which are reflected in variations of the firearms and traced through various markings, parts and conditions. That said, the wide myriad of variables makes each produced carbine individually unique, but yet, they all meet a specific general standard. In my opinion, there are actually a relatively few carbines which reach "COLLECTOR" status. Things like rare line-outs, a particularly limited version of a part manufactured, first/last of a run, provenance of ownership/usage, and even originality of production condition seem to be factors with what individual COLLECTORS look at why they pull out their wallets. These criteria reflect actual, traceable "abnomalities" in the history of the carbine and they demonstrate it by their existance - hence being collectable.

This last point is something a bit confusing to me. The soldiers that carried and used them didn't see to it that way. They valued condition and the reliability of having the lastest improvement installed. Its just like the warriors of today - few want to carry a (always jamming) Vietnam version of the M-16, they want the up-to-date M-4's with optics and the latest tactical sling. (Ok, ok, ok... some WWII guys thought it was neat to have a Rock-ola just like today some guys sort through the armory looking for the Colt lower receivers.).

I actually believe that a small percentage of carbines reach into the "collector" category. The vast majority are "shooters" that should be enjoyed. Maybe that's the definition of what a "collector" is in itself - a small percentage which rises above the average to stand out as different from others. Its a pity that alot of guys buying carbines want their carbine to be "the one" or some rare variation which it really isn't. These guys "see" things that are not there, "believe" things that never existed and will spend money to make it into something that it never was. Out of all of mine, I have only ONE which even comes close to being a collector item - a 7.27 Winchester because of its serial. All the others are shooters - just plain carbines in a wide range of conditions. I enjoy and maintain them with the intention of passing them (and the history they represent) down to my heirs.

If you want to spend your money buying a collectable carbine, then I suggest that you find locate a REAL collectable which meets some of the "real collectable" criteria. Rebuilding a receiver to make it all correct is a simple novelity in my opinion and it does not make a carbine a "collectable", it just makes it a "collection" of carbine parts which is really a shooter.

Just my two cents worth because you asked....

Buying a carbine becomes a crap shoot for those not informed. That was I twenty years ago. I grew up shooting a 5.7 DCM Winchester rebuilt to Koean War specks. I thought that was what they all were supposed to look like. There is no crap shoot in collecting carbines. We all buy what we want.
I would like to point out collections should have a theme. That way you can limit the collection and improve quality as time goes along. At one time my theme was to have a carbine from every 100,000 serial numbers. I long since gave that up as foolish. I don't think I even have one from each manufacturer's blocks. Anyother theme gone bye-bye. I do think there are some collectors that are still working on that theme.
Many prople have a theme to have one carbine, Garand and 1911A1, then other guns can be added as money is available, 1903A3, 38 S&W, Johnson, Tommy, etc.

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Originally Posted by G26ster

4. Want a mixmaster that has been under U.S. gov't control since manufacture (sold by CMP) - assures all parts are USGI.

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If foreign governments ordered their spare parts from Uncle Sam. I recently measured the spring rate of a recoil spring installed in a CMP purchase (not because I had nothing better to do but because I am very interested in how these guns work). I measured its rate to be about 450 N/m, almost 25% higher than USGI specs (360 N/m). It functions fine, but this "high speed spring" was procurred somewhere during the 60+ years between original issue and me. It is either not USGI or if it is USGI, it does not conform to original USGI specs.

How many "original" rifles actually have USGI springs?

FWIW anyway

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Originally Posted by 63Vette

Why the does a rifle which most likely does not come from a single manufacturer garner high dollar consideration when most likely it was not processed as such - save Winchester.

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I recently inherited a M1 Carbine and a Luger from my Dad who inherited them from his Dad who only God knows where he got them from. One weapon's parts can be exchanged with 5,999,999 others while the other one's parts were made at the same place and meant to be married together forever. They were both built that way intentionally and both were very successful at their purposes. Personally, as long as the M1 has all M1 parts, I would be happy with it. I would pay more for condition. But if the Luger had one mis-matched number on one of its parts, I would pay less no matter what the condition. So I would guess in the M1 Carbine world, there would be many types of collectors. I sure do enjoy the research on them and think it is a neat thing to see the list of all the contributing manufacturers on my carbine.

Jack (still new at this)

Mixmaster carbines are part of the m1 carbines heritage and history. Change
the gun and you change its history. If my pet dies and I clone it - I will have
a similar animal - but not my beloved pet. :)

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Originally Posted by jackthesmib

Mixmaster carbines are part of the m1 carbines heritage and history. Change
the gun and you change its history. If my pet dies and I clone it - I will have
a similar animal - but not my beloved pet. :)

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Great post and I agree,
But we have to remember there are many parts that were saved from being De-Milled/Crunched.
Also that parts do wear out or break.

Though it gets pricey, I don't have a problem with a guy taking a barreled receiver he's picked up along the way and buying/installing correct USGI parts back on it.
Problems arise when these are represented as 'As Issued' down the road.

I picked up a Rock Ola barreled receiver years ago. I finally have all the REAL parts to restore it. I'm sure it's cost me more than if I could have run across an example years ago. But I feel at the least I've saved one. Now I just need more time for personal projects.

If I'd have been looking for carbines 20 years ago instead of a Casino, no telling what type of collection I'd have today.

Regards,
Charlie-painter777

Charlie's got a good point.
I recently found a late IBM B/R with what I believe is original adjustable rear sight. Perfect stake marks. I'll get some pics of it up tomorrow. The sight still has it's paint on it. I had the stock and a matching HG. Now I'm gathering parts, might as well make them late IBM. I consider it a "saved" carbine.....Frank