I'm new to these rifles. What are the things to look out for when purchasing?
Thanks,
John
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I'm new to these rifles. What are the things to look out for when purchasing?
Thanks,
John
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCeglarek
The answer is - nothing that you would not look for in any other used rifle. I am not aware of any M1917-specific problems.
Here is a rough order of inspection, a lot of which can be done "over the counter" in a shop. Note: it pays to take a few bits and bobs (marked in bold type) with you, as you can deduce from the following.
After the obvious check on what it is - correct parts, serial number, marking etc - for which the best advice I can give you is to acquire a copy of Stratton: “The Pattern 1914 and U.S. Model 1917 Rifles”, before making your purchase, the important check (unless you are merely purchasing a piece of decoration) is “Could it be of any use as a shooter?”
1) The absolute "killer criterion" is the slam-fire and safety-off-fire test. If the rifle fails here, you need not waste a further second on it.
a) Slam-fire.
Check that the rifle is unloaded. Cock the bolt. Hold the rifle vertically at the muzzle end and bang the butt down sharply on a piece of wood placed on the floor. Since the average service rifle has had its butt banged on the parade ground many times during its service life, you are not going to damage it or reduce its value if you do the same on a piece of wood.
b) Safety-off-fire.
Check that the rifle is unloaded. Cock the bolt. Set the safety lever to ON, i.e. pulled back on an M1917. As you pull back the safety lever you should feel noticeable resistance as the safety lifts the cocking piece ledge off the sear and actually see the cocking piece being forced back a small but visible amount. If you do not feel any resistance, be prepared for what might happen next!
Press the trigger. You should feel only the slight resistance of the trigger return spring, because the safety has lifted the cocking piece ledge off the sear. If you feel no resistance, the trigger return spring may be faulty. If you feel noticeable resistance, the safety has not lifted the cocking piece edge clear of the sear, so be prepared again for what might happen next! There may be a slight click and you will see that the cocking piece moves forwards a tiny amount. This means that the cocking piece ledge has slipped past the sear - in effect the rifle has "fired", but the cocking piece is now being held by the safety!!!!
..... So when you push the safety lever forwards, to the OFF position....the bolt slams forwards!
Aren't you glad that you did not have a live round in the chamber!
A rifle that fails one or both of the above tests is definitely UNSAFE. It is badly worn or Bubba-ed. The only cure is a new cocking piece and trigger. That is uneconomic unless you can get it for a parts-donor price.
If 1) was OK, then we can proceed.
2) Remove the bolt and take a look down the barrel from the chamber end. If it looks anything other than thoroughly clean, stop and establish the price the seller would take right now for the rifle as it is right now. Because you don't want to waste time upvaluing someone else's property!
Quite possible the bore looks spotted, dark, or pitch black. Do not worry - I have had examples of all three that turned out well. Fit an appropriate cleaning patch onto a cleaning rod that is (preferably) long enough to clean right through to the muzzle from the chamber end. Run the patch through the bore until it pops out at the muzzle end. Is it gray? Then you just need to clean the bore. Is it black? That might be nothing more than hardened grease or oil, and I have found some beautiful bores underneath such a black layer. But if the patch comes out brown you have at least superficial rust. If the patch is brown and torn, the bore is seriously pitted and you can stop right there.
Continue cleaning, using patches lightly moistened with a suitable bore cleaner, until the bore looks clean or you are convinced that it is a hopeless case, whichever comes first!*
3) Now look down the bore from the chamber end. Do you see any gouges or evidence of ringing? Can you see any obvious roughness, especially in the throat?
4) If all is OK, turn the rifle round and take a look at the muzzle end. Not down the muzzle! Looking down the barrel will NOT help you to evaluate the muzzle, as you are blinded by the light from the bore you have just cleaned! My tip is to push a white cloth patch or roll of paper (I use white cleaning felts) into the muzzle, down about 1/8" from the crown. The reflected light will enable you to take a good look at the crown and the muzzle end of the rifling, using a watchmaker's eyeglass.
Is the crown smooth and symmetrical? Crowns often show slight burrs (bad handling) or uneven wear (incorrect use of pull-throughs!), but a tatty crown is easy to clean up. Just knock $20 off the estimated price you are building in your mind.
Is the rifling unbroken right up to the crown, with no pitting? If not, this could be more serious.
5) Take an empty cartridge case (no powder or primer!) that has a bullet properly seated to a plausible depth and insert the nose of the bullet into the muzzle. It should not go in so deeply that the mouth of the case reaches the crown! This would indicate a bore that is worn to the point of uselessness.
If the bullet goes in so far that about 1/8” or more is left outside, then the muzzle end of the bore is usable. Twiddle the case round so that the muzzle leaves a mark around the bullet. If you have a slide gauge or micrometer you can measure the diameter of this ring mark, which is the diameter of the bore at the muzzle. This is a difficult measurement to make, so do not expect more than a “looks OK” result.
If all the above has turned out OK, then you probably have a rifle that is worth test-firing.
If the seller will not let you make the above tests, go somewhere else!
Hope this helps!
Patrick
:wave:
*Be patient! A good seller will let you take a chair and sit in a corner to do this. After all - if you do not purchase the rifle in the end, you have improved his property! I spent about 1/2 an hour getting the fossilized grease out of the bore of the Martini-Henry that I finally purchased (after seeing a battalion's-worth of wrecks and Khyber-Pass specials). During that 1/2-hour the bore went from pitch black to near-mint shiny. Hence the necessity of establishing a price before all that value-enhancing work!
I have only one thing to add to Patrick's advice and that is to check for a cracked reciever ring, especially where it is hidden by the stock. There's a thread a few pages back that discusses this issue and it would be worth your while to read through it, '' my first 1917 with a crack'' by chuckindenver. Appearently if a 1917 is reberrelled improperly it can/will cause the receiver ring to develope a crack(s).
Also , do you want a WW1 style .....blued finished and most every part marked with the maker's mark ( R,E,or W ) proper for that maker ....or a WW2 style....rebuild marked stock , park'ed finish , mixed parts , maybe a WW2 produced barrel ? What would be found on one may not be right for the other.
Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCeglarek
To add to the above discussion, try this book.............
http://www.scott-duff.com/Book115.jpg
It is ONLY about the US models. No info about the British counterparts. But you did mention the M1917 specifically in your header.
HTH,
Emri
kinda like asking what to look for in a new wife or girl friend....its all in what you like,
beyond the obvious safety issues, you have to own it, shoot it, and live with it, Blonde, Redhead, brunet, or raven haired, all are fun in there own way...
one thing to look out for is the bore - many of these were sent to VFWs and such for funeral honor guard duty , they often were not cleaned and blanks can be corrosive ,