Early Lyman 48 sight issue

I am looking for comments/opinions from collectors and even hopefully our well known experts here on this forum to settle a matter.

I recently sold a early first variation Lyman 48 sight on ebay. I believe I described the sight to the best of my abilities and provided what I believe are suitable pictures to show the details. The buyer expected a later model sight with later features and states that my sight was "not as described" I will provide the auction listing as well as correspondence (with names omitted).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_500wt_1413

Dear Seller
I recently purchased this sight on your auction and just unpacked it as I have been out of town. I have several problems with the sight.
Although the receiver mount appears to fit a springfield receiver, it cannot be mounted without cutting a notch in the stock. Secondly, the elevation adjustment cannot travel the full range of 150 minutes.
Thirdly I believe that the windage bridge looks like it came from another sight made to mount on the right side of the receiver. All Lyman 48 sights have the windage scale on the rear of the bridge toward the shooter. This sight has the scale on the muzzle side of the bridge. My conclusion is that the base mount and the windage bridge came from two different sights. I consulted a colleague of mine who has a Lyman 48 Springfield sight and his assessment of this sight is the same as mine. As such I want to return this sight to you for a refund refund as it is certainly not a 48S 0r 48C sight.


My reply:
I clearly labeled the sight as an early version made from 1911-1919 with unnotched base. ALL Lyman 1903 sights made BEFORE 1947 were not notched and required notching of the stock to fit. Please research original NRA Sporters and any 48 equipped rifle on Gunbroker or Google and you will see that they always required notching of the stock, even on factory built sporters. The THIRD variation of the 48 sight with the notched base to fit around the stock wood came out around 1947.

Please advise further about the slide not reaching the full adjustment range. Have you tried adjusting the pointer downward??

Third, you state that "All Lyman 48 sights have the windage scale on the rear of the bridge toward the shooter." The sight I sold you DOES have the scale on the rear of the bridge, but later sights were made with the scale on the front because you could see it better. You imply that the windage bridge came from another rifle. The slide/bridge has an assembly code stamped on the inside that matches the code on the inside of the base. These parts were fitted together at the factory and numbered to match. Pictures of which are clearly shown in the auction and you can pull back on the knurled knob on the base and remove the slide yourself to inspect the matching numbers. Again, this is an early sight and correct for this time period.

You state that your colleague has a 48 sight that is different. Is his a early first variation or a later model?




If possible, would you members on this forum please provide third party pictures of early Lyman sights and the required stock cutouts?

I refer to page 476, upper left pic, on this link http://books.google.com/books?id=vb3...epairs&f=false


ALSO
"OLD GUNSIGHTS, A Collector's Guide, 1850-1965" By Nick Stroebel
Quote: First Two Variations had the same size mounting block; 1.0625" x 1.250".

1st Variation Features ( 1911 to 1919):
Long Slide = Graduated to 150 points
Windage Scale is on Shooter's Side of bar.
A screw-in apperature was standard, but soon a fold down peep was offered
(for 50 cents LESS)
Elevation & Windage adjustable with 1-Minute Clicks & Knobs had 4-"Point" marks

2nd Variation Features ( 1919 to 1947 )
I am saying "Medium Length Slide"= Graduated to 125 points is standard. My note; some just have the 125 & others have, what I call 125+2 point markings. Maybe these 125+2's were 150's that were cut down by Lyman??? Also, the Long (150) Slide is available as a special order.

Windage Scale was moved to the FRONT of the bar on all models, except the No. 48S
Turn Down Peep is now standard & screw-in disc cost 50cents extra.

Elevation & Windage available in 1/4, 1/2, & 1.0 Minute click adjustments. The special order 150 point slide was also offered in 1/3 Minute click adjustments.
Larger Adjustment Knobs standard on Target Model sights.

Hunting Style Knobs were available with 1/3, 1/2 (standard), & 1.0 Minute point markings (clicks???).

3rd Variation Features ( 1947 to 1974) // Mounting Block Size is now smaller ( 1.00" x 1.0625" ).
The rear of the block is now "Radiused" at the stock line, so that no wood need be removed when mounting the sight.

The Slide Length is shortened again = Graduated to 60 Points and a new style elevation screw (eliminated clearance cut in stock for screw).
A new "Long Slide" Graduated to 105 Points was now available on Special Order. And, slides have been observed Graduated to 75 Points.
Turn-Down Peep was Eliminated.

Coin Slot ( 1/4 Minute) Knobs now optional on all models.
The Slide Release Spring was changed from the external flat spring to an Internal Coil Spring.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...c2138bcf-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-12.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tandard-25.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...964fc30d-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...d506612b-1.jpg

I remember when the sight was for sale because I'm always looking for the long-slide ones.

I don't have time to dig out all my books and papers on the Lyman 48's but I did not bid because the sight is not for a 1903 Springfield.

If I were you I would refund his money, do a little more research and re-list it.

Is it possible that this is a Mauser 48 sight? I have now noticed the difference in the horizontal part of the windage slide, apparently the 1903 version has on offset to reach over the receiver hump. Do you concur Mr Petrov?

Was this the difference making it not for a 1903 or are their other issues?
I bought the sight some time ago and it was sold to me as a 1903 sight and since Lyman did not mark application codes back then assumed it was correct and it fit fine on my rifle.

I think it may well be for a Mauser. As you note, the windage arm does not have the "dog leg" to clear the rear "hump" on the receiver.

I have never seen a 1903 Lyman 48 that does not have the "dog leg".

I recently glommed this one on fleabay...

Lyman Model 48 series target sight for M1903 series rifles | eBay

I have a short slide Lyman 48 on a Remington 1903 ...

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC00226-1.jpg

I also have a currently unemployed Lyman 48C, which is one of the older type requiring that the stock be "notched".

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...P6010138-1.jpg

As you can see they all have the "dog leg"

I apologize that I just don't have time to do proper research. The crossbar is flat (like a Mauser) but the base is not cut for the clip slot which is found on both the Mauser and 03. I hope this helps.

Thank you for the comments. Since the later SME sights fit Mausers and 1903's I never considered that they would make two seperate sights in the early days. Other than the doglegged windage arm I would have never seen a difference.

I have contacted the buyer with an apology and offer for full refund including shipping costs. I think he would have been more suited looking for a third variation or a early 57SME to suit his needs anyways.

Thanks again for clearing this up.

I've been thinking about your sight and wounder if you have looked at what 48 fit the Winchester 54?

Lyman 48 W receiver sight long slide Winchester 54 : Gun Sights at GunBroker.com

I think the Winchester 54 and 70 Lyman 48's are made to fit on the left hand side of the receiver, aren't they?

I believe Micheal is correct, it's a 48W. Those were not marked early on.

Kurt

Just to close this out, I gave the buyer a full refund plus return shipping. I turned the aperture around so the sight will work from a left side mounting like it should. The sight was sold to me as for a 1903 but now thanks to your help I know it is a 48W.