Need Info on a rare Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 POL OLD

I try to get the most information on a unusual rifle I just bought from someone that didn't have a clue regarding the marking " POL OLD "

So far, thank to a very knowledgeable person who is also member of this site, I gather this info regarding the rifle.

POL OLD would be POLIZEI OLDENBURG, meaning a British-made rifle supplied to German police in the immediate post-War period.

" The grooved upper handguard, the ROUND cocking-piece and the actual Bolt-head Release all are pointers toward a very early rifle. All of these features disappeared in the rush in WW2. They were part of the design, but these parts were done away with because they took time and money. The grooves in the handguard just were not cut: faster and cheaper and easier to finish. The ROUND Cocking-piece was replaced by the faster-to-make and cheaper flat Cocking-piece. The right side of the Body (Receiver) got a CUT for releasing the Bolt-head and the Screw and Spring-catch were done away with, along with the time to machine them. Early rifles are SCARCE.

The Police markings, though, would have come from an even SMALLER batch of rifles. When the British armed the German Police after the War, they contributed any rifle they had which was useful and at hand. There was no effort to supply rifles of any particular make or model: just rifles.... and not very many of them, either. Police don't have a lot of use for full-power rifles.

The Americans tended to supply German Police with M-1 Carbines; I have seen one marked LP-WB: Landespolizei Wurttemberg: Wurttemberg State Police. I would think that the police in a place such as Oldenburg MIGHT have received as many as 50 or 100 rifles, but certainly no more.

It is entirely possible that your rifle is the only one of its exact type ever to have those markings.

IAN SKENNERTON is a member on that board (as am I) and I am sure that he would love to see the photos."
I shall keep my source anonymous unless he's OK with the fact I can mention is name

There a 640 under the POL OLD marking and a 619 on the Magazine ( same batch for Oldenburg, mixed magazine ? )

The serial even if it's small ( S37171), it looks like the S3 has been add later. Or maybe the first part " S3 " is electro-penciled and the " 7171 " is stamped. Can it really be a 1945 with that little serial # ? Or it was refurbished in 1945 ?

All pointed to a BSA rifle, except the Front sight blade is Longbranch and the Magazine appears the to be a Savage one, re-stamp B ( for BSA )

Any info on this will be greatly appreciated.

Andre

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Don't know what to say, I think you've educated me, not visa versa, well done on a very interesting find.

I'm baffled Kohr - as I expect, are most others here............ I'm not quite sure that your rifle is rare or even scarce insofar as the different parts are concerned. In real terms, it's just another one of hundreds of thousands of these Mk1 rifles built in the UK during the war. As I mention, you'll find those parts or combinatiuons of parts on thousands upon thousands of Mk1,1* and so on, up the scale of No4 rifles. As a matter of interest, I don't think that I'd call a 1945 No4 particularly early either! Nope, it's just another bog standard BSA made mix and match wartime produced No4 Mk1 rifle

What makes it interesting to collectors is the markings that indicate where it's been for a few years of its life.

Maybe the man who told you all this information regarding the mysterious rarity has been slightly mistaken. Maybe he could put his head above the parapet and explain his findings. They'd cause some interesting replies I feel........

Thank You Peter for the info.

So basically it's a common rifle with uncommon marking ( POL OLD)
It's another exceptions among many exceptions ...

It's the marking that makes this rifle Unique, not the rifle itself.

Feel free if you found something else regarding this marking, It's hard to know the real value of this rifle with few information, or no comparatives.

Regards,
Kohr Varik

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kohr Varik

I" The grooved upper handguard, the ROUND cocking-piece and the actual Bolt-head Release all are pointers toward a very early rifle. All of these features disappeared in the rush in WW2. They were part of the design, but these parts were done away with because they took time and money. The grooves in the handguard just were not cut: faster and cheaper and easier to finish. The ROUND Cocking-piece was replaced by the faster-to-make and cheaper flat Cocking-piece. The right side of the Body (Receiver) got a CUT for releasing the Bolt-head and the Screw and Spring-catch were done away with, along with the time to machine them. Early rifles are SCARCE.

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But your rifle does not have the early round cocking piece but rather the later cocking piece. Additionally, the bolt release was never changed on UK production rifles (No.4 Mk.1 - which is what you have), only North American production (No.4 Mk.1*).

BTW, the ejector screw is missing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beerhunter

But your rifle does not have the early round cocking piece but rather the later cocking piece. Additionally, the bolt release was never changed on UK production rifles (No.4 Mk.1 - which is what you have), only North American production (No.4 Mk.1*).

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Ahh damn I forgot to remove that paragraph, it refers to another rifle I acquire at same time, sorry !

I can't edit once others have posted it seems...

The post war German police marking is interesting, but I don't know that it is anything more than a curiosity.
Obviously some parts, like the magazine, were replaced over the years.