Civilian special order/private purchase FNC1??

I have had another look at the rifle I referenced in the thread about the C1 Leitz scope, and am appending some photos. The man who had it has had it since the 1970's. He bought it from an armourer/dealer who got it from the original owner, who was a soldier from Gagetown. The soldier bought it directly from the factory through Century apparently. According to the fellow who has it, for a very brief period of time CAL manufactured rifles for direct sale to shooters, somewhat akin to what Ross did with sales to shooting clubs, etc? Since I was not even born in 1962 I have no idea if that is correct or not, and there are no records that I can find anywhere about that. (Still, buy the rifle, not the story as they say......) Blake Stevens' book on North American FAL's makes no mention of it, but it would make sense I suppose. CAL was fulfilling its contract demands and by 1962 would likely have been looking for other outlets and markets. Canada used to be considerably more firearms friendly--that changed under Trudeau senior, when the FN was prohibited.

In any event, this rifle is identical to my other issue 6L series rifles, but has no military marks. It has an engraved serial number starting with EX in the spots where the serial number is usually found on the C1 military, has CAL 1962 stamped into the right upper, and has the CAL engraved proof on the bolt and breech block. Otherwise, it has no marks, and in particular does not have the usual C1A1 model designation stamp on the left frame. I have appended photos of all the markings I can find. The serial number is odd, in that it appears to be the year of manufacture. One wonders if they were indeed making rifles to sell to the public if they went EA, EB, EC, or ??????? The C1 was well refined by 1962 (the year the A1 designation came out I think) and there would have been no need for "experimental" units. If this was a lunchbox special, it wouldn't have a serial number in this fashion.

I have no idea how many of these would have been manufactured or sold, or what happened to most of them over the years. Anyone run into such a thing? Did any documents survive at all from the CAL death throes?

Ed

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What a superb and now very rare rifle, lucky man, I am sure BAR will be along to answer your questions .

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Originally Posted by boltaction

I have had another look at the rifle I referenced in the thread about the C1 Leitz scope, and am appending some photos. The man who had it has had it since the 1970's. He bought it from an armourer/dealer who got it from the original owner, who was a soldier from Gagetown. The soldier bought it directly from the factory through Century apparently. According to the fellow who has it, for a very brief period of time CAL manufactured rifles for direct sale to shooters, somewhat akin to what Ross did with sales to shooting clubs, etc? Since I was not even born in 1962 I have no idea if that is correct or not, and there are no records that I can find anywhere about that. (Still, buy the rifle, not the story as they say......) Blake Stevens' book on North American FAL's makes no mention of it, but it would make sense I suppose. CAL was fulfilling its contract demands and by 1962 would likely have been looking for other outlets and markets. Canada used to be considerably more firearms friendly--that changed under Trudeau senior, when the FN was prohibited.

In any event, this rifle is identical to my other issue 6L series rifles, but has no military marks. It has an engraved serial number starting with EX in the spots where the serial number is usually found on the C1 military, has CAL 1962 stamped into the right upper, and has the CAL engraved proof on the bolt and breech block. Otherwise, it has no marks, and in particular does not have the usual C1A1 model designation stamp on the left frame. I have appended photos of all the markings I can find. The serial number is odd, in that it appears to be the year of manufacture. One wonders if they were indeed making rifles to sell to the public if they went EA, EB, EC, or ??????? The C1 was well refined by 1962 (the year the A1 designation came out I think) and there would have been no need for "experimental" units. If this was a lunchbox special, it wouldn't have a serial number in this fashion.

I have no idea how many of these would have been manufactured or sold, or what happened to most of them over the years. Anyone run into such a thing? Did any documents survive at all from the CAL death throes?

Ed

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CAL sold C1 rifles, C2 Machine Guns and C1 SMGs direct to civilian DCRA and PRA members in the early 1960s.


I note 2 things,

1- The receiver does not have the rifle designation on the left side of the receiver, ie) Rifle, 7.62mm. FN (C1A1)

2- The pattern of engraving used for the serial number is a commercial pattern usually used for engraving things like trophies

I have seen 2 C1 rifles which have never been serialed, and an unserialed C2 receiver which was used to rebuild a (registered civilian owned) C2 which suffered a crack while shooting.

My conclusions are that I believe that your rifles receiver was originally un serial numbered, and a past owner took it to the local trophy shop and had it "serial numbered" for registration purposes.

From the lack of rifle designation markings the receiver may have been "liberated" before completion, or it could have been a replacement receiver which was not numbered, or (noticing the apparent finish smoothness difference between the left an right sides) a C2 marked receiver which was wiped of designation markings to make it a rifle rather than a machinegun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

CAL sold C1 rifles, C2 Machine Guns and C1 SMGs direct to civilian DCRA and PRA members in the early 1960s.


I note 2 things,

1- The receiver does not have the rifle designation on the left side of the receiver, ie) Rifle, 7.62mm. FN (C1A1)

2- The pattern of engraving used for the serial number is a commercial pattern usually used for engraving things like trophies

I have seen 2 C1 rifles which have never been serialed, and an unserialed C2 receiver which was used to rebuild a (registered civilian owned) C2 which suffered a crack while shooting.

My conclusions are that I believe that your rifles receiver was originally un serial numbered, and a past owner took it to the local trophy shop and had it "serial numbered" for registration purposes.

From the lack of rifle designation markings the receiver may have been "liberated" before completion, or it could have been a replacement receiver which was not numbered, or (noticing the apparent finish smoothness difference between the left an right sides) a C2 marked receiver which was wiped of designation markings to make it a rifle rather than a machinegun.

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Yes, the fact the receiver lacks the usual C1A1 and calibre marking on the left side was already noted in my original text. That is an interesting point about the serial number engraving. It is certainly different than the usual engraving used by CAL, and my commercially sold (supposedly) C2 configuration 6L with bipod and heavy barrel has the normal military serial number style and stamps. This is intriguing, and certainly the lack of markings could be explained by it being a back door special! One wonders therefore about the true path this took from the factory to the original owner, who was apparently a soldier out of Gagetown. Perhaps it was indeed "liberated" or a lunchbox special; would not the security around these sorts of things have been tightened up by the '60's, though, given what was known about the "liberation" of parts from Inglis and LB during the war? In any event, this rifle apparently used to shoot very well and was used in some sort of team shooting (who really knows, though) so if I get it I'll have it checked out. It would be neat to use it!

Ed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by boltaction

Yes, the fact the receiver lacks the usual C1A1 and calibre marking on the left side was already noted in my original text. That is an interesting point about the serial number engraving. It is certainly different than the usual engraving used by CAL, and my commercially sold (supposedly) C2 configuration 6L with bipod and heavy barrel has the normal military serial number style and stamps. This is intriguing, and certainly the lack of markings could be explained by it being a back door special! One wonders therefore about the true path this took from the factory to the original owner, who was apparently a soldier out of Gagetown. Perhaps it was indeed "liberated" or a lunchbox special; would not the security around these sorts of things have been tightened up by the '60's, though, given what was known about the "liberation" of parts from Inglis and LB during the war? In any event, this rifle apparently used to shoot very well and was used in some sort of team shooting (who really knows, though) so if I get it I'll have it checked out. It would be neat to use it!
Ed

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We have to remember that in the 1950s until after the Quebec FLQ Crisis, C1s were just another rifle like a single shot Cooey.

Machine guns and hand guns were supposed to be registered, but generally no one cared (including the authorities). Being caught with un-registered hand guns and machine guns resulted in you having to register them...no criminal penalty unless you were committing a crime with them...

A friend of mine (sadly long since gone) had a letter from the solicitor general which stated that because the local police had refused to register his Lewis gun, he could register it when ever he wanted to, or continue to possess it without registration.

And bringing up the FLQ Crisis, it was the spark for a lot of MG rebuilding and registration. One friend of mine bemoaned the fact that he had assembled and (later) registered a dozen Stens and several BARs that he rebuilt during the FLQ Crisis when it appeared the country was about to spin out of control.

Thanks Lee Enfield. That is a Canada I have heard about but am too young to have known. I was born in '68, so was about 8 or 10 when the laws came in banning machine guns and grandfathering them. If only my parents had had enough foresight to purchase a nice Vickers or something and put it in my name when I was a kid......... :lol:

Ed etal-- As far as I know the serial number on the UPPER receiver is all that matters regarding registration (U.S. anyway). The "1962" following CAI looks to me like the serial number and probably has nothing to do with a production year. CAI sold many completed L!A!s during the 80s and 90s with a variety of receivers and markings. Salt Flat

Disregard my previous post My old eyes read that as C A I. Completely different rifles. Salt Flat