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During a disussion about the accuracy of the H&K MP5 it was stated that a precise shot could be achieved at 100 metres. The Wehrnmacht trained servicemen to shoot the Luger (P08) using a single hand stance at 50 metres. German police manuals claim that 9 Para ammunition is not precise at more 25 metres.
At what distance are personnel expected to shoot 9 Para machine pistols with acceptable results?
It isn't the ammunition that's not accurate, it's the shooter and his lack of training. I know what the guys in these video's are doing isn't exact science but it shows the potential of the 9x19 mm round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wXFf34bB34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM6BOjsFx4M
We had a competition using the C1 SMG that rivaled the rifle and pistol shooters. There was nothing wrong with the accuracy. Or are you asking a measurement of grouping?Quote:
Originally Posted by villiers
The issue is training and the limitation of the firearm. For example pistols I would consider ineffective at any distance beyond 25m without a significant amount of training, due to the short sight radius and the fact the firearm is held out from your body. You add a shoulder stock to the same pistol and I would increase the effective range significantly, to around 100m (provided the sights are set up for it). One thing with the one hand pistol stance at 50m, is sure you can do it effectively at the range when no one is firing back at you, but once it is a real two way range, you won't have the time to line up and make such effective shots (without a significant amount of training).
One thing with that how far will a 9mm kill video is that the ammo he is using isn't standard FMJ ball ammo. With the standard ammo the ammunition used does become less effective the farther you get.
Well for what it is worth, I can consistently cut a human sized target to shreds at 75 meters with an MP 40! I do the same at 50+ meters shooting from the hip! I can then repeat the above with both the Thompson and Sten Gun.
It is simply a matter of practice to stay consistent.
Sarge
The videos show an astonishing level of competence with a semi-auto pistol! I was mainly interested in groupings, as the discussion was based on the legality of police use of 9 Para under urban conditions at longer distances.
I think it's possible to hit a human full size target up to 150-200 meters with a H&K MP5 using NATO 124gr ball ammo. I've seen it done with a Steyr Aug A1 Para 9mm SMG and an early FN made UZI 9mm SMG with a wooden stock.
So why wouldn't a Law Enforcement Officer, after enough practice and with suitable ammo, shouldn't be able to do it? They just don't get the chance do it. Most European Law Enforcement agencies train their Officers up to 25 meters with a pistol and up to 50 meters with a SMG. And most of them get limited range time, sometimes just 4 times a year with only 50 rounds.
My SIL is a cop, had over 50,000 rounds thru his 9mm Glock 5 years ago and is very very good with it. I have seen him keep a pop can moving at over 25 yards every shot. He has not shot as much since his promotion but still more than competent. I think next year he is going to visit and I intend to try to coincide the visit with a 'fun" military shoot at our range. The discussion I expect will be how many shots went in that ragged hole.
He is also very good with a H&K MP5 after spending many years on the tactical team.
Unprofor, That was the gist of the discussion (there was also a rumour that the latest delivery of the H&K MP5s to North America ended up training law enforcement officers on a range at 10 metres)
The rumour of 10 meters is probably true. I think you will find far too many police officers are anything but good shots and shooting at distance might compromise the lives of the innocent. A recent confrontation in BC with police had a "trained" mountie(s) fire 11 rounds at a moving vehicle that had just run over or was about to run over a spike belt and one round hit the side mirror, the other 10 completely missed which is rather scary, but what do I know. The mountie was shooting a AR15.Quote:
Originally Posted by villiers
Talked to my SIL about the MP5, said they did shooting drills from 1 meter distance and out. They were purchased for clearing a building and nothing else. They did drills up to 25 meters and further and at times 75/80/100 meters but the gun was not intended to be used at that distance. I have shot at the range they use and there is a gong at 300 meters, he told me he could hit it with the MP5 but would not try that very often. The gong was around 16X16 inches max.