Real or fake?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/640451500
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Real or fake?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/640451500
Attachment 83407Attachment 83406
Unfortunately when the gun showed up for auction @7-8 years ago there were only 2 (poor) photos, and it looked significantly different.
At the time I listed it as probably real, however in the mean time the gun has been significantly modified, and I suspect the spurious markings added.
Also thanks to the better photos we can see that the Rings have been "worked over" to appear Long Branch type. They appear to be a mix of repro and possibly British parts.
The pads are probably fakes.
The cheek piece is fake.
The scope may be the only original part on the gun.
I'm changing my listing from possibly real, to Fake.
That front pad looks allot different to the one fitted to my T those screws look un evenly set and like they have been linished also my T's front pad is fitted further forward than the one shown.
Mine pic 1 the G B LB pic 2
Yes, it's definitely 'constructed'! And I'd agree with Lee Enfield's general points. The pads could just be very mutilated UK originals, but they're that bashed about it's almost academic anyway. Agreed cheekpiece may well be repro but it could just possibly be a messed about British example made from ash with the 'flutes' at the front opened out to make it look 'more Canadian'. The S TR & T are all bogus & the pads bear dings in them that one would expect to see continued onto the receiver where the two mating surfaces meet - & they're not there.
Definitely 'a speculative piece for the specialist collector'!!??!!
(I'd love that REL Mk2 scope though..........got a needy 71L rifle!).
Rifle 1942 No. 4 MK. I* 8L7930 with scope 1945 C No. 32 MK. II Sn 661-C
A reminder to members to please list the serial numbers at the very least for rifles/scopes that are being discussed as many of the original listings vanish after awhile. After that, if the serial numbers were not recorded, readers will have no idea which rifle/scope was being talked about.
For the rifle that "superbee" mentioned at the start of this thread here is the information for the record and some observations and my opinions.
I agree that the scope is a rare original C No. 32 MK. II but I believe that the rifle has had FAKE British sniper conversion process markings stamped into it. The beacket is questionable. The chest and scope case are originals but are mismatched. If the price drops low enough, then the set is worth purchasing for the parts. The scope is the best and most valuable part. The rifle body should at least have the "TR" and "S" markings removed and maybe it should be made into a sporter or even stripped and the body destroyed. The bracket should have the rifle number removed at the very least (assuming that my opinion is correct).
FOR THE RECORD:
This is a 1942 rifle with a 1945 scope allegedly factory matching (as implied by the manner of numbering the bracket), but that time spread of 3 years is too great in my opinion. 8Lxxxx is not one of the known numbers sequences for sniper conversion and any pre-1944 Long Branch "sniper" rifles need to be viewed with the greatest of caution. There were only 165 Long Branch sniper rifles made before 1944 ("stencollector" recently provided this evidence in another thread). This scope was almost certainly assigned to a 1944-1945 71L0xxx rifle at the factory. The rifle has spurious BRITISH markings which would not be found on a Long Branch sniper e.g. "S" and "TR". The "T" has serifs and it is of the British style. Some early Canadian snipers were reportedly retroactively marked with the "T" in British service, so alone this is not a huge issue. Taken in combination with the "TR" and "S" it rings warning bells.
RIFLE: Made by Small Arms Limited at Long Branch, Toronto, Ontario, Canada in 1942 serial number 8L7930
Bolt - 8L7930 matches the rifle body SN.
Butt - No scope number on the wrist. Rifle serial number stamped on right side on wrist and I have never seen one so marked before.
Backsight - Mark I modified. British. Marked /|\ and "B" (for Birmingham I believe).
Swivel in front of the magazine - This is a long shaft target pattern (thus rotates a full 360 degrees) and it is marked /|\ and /|\ over "I" (Indian issue mark)
Magazine - Mismatched. Appears to be numbered to Stevens-Savage No. 4 MK. I* 95C2522, omitting the letter "C" thus showing as SN 952522
Furniture - Markings are not shown. Forearm is the "high wood" (no clearance for the by then non-existent magazine cut-off.) This is possibly correct as the changeover from "low wood" appears to have happened in 1942.
Pads - Others more knowledgeable than I have commented on the pads. The C/|\ stamp on the front pad is likely faked when taken in context with everything else.
BRACKET: The large serial number marked 8L7930 on the left side in the centre of the bar is not aligned (all those I have seen are aligned). This is the 1944-1946 style of numbering the bracket. Earlier Canadian examples were stamped sometimes with the rifle serial number, similarly to the British (possibly done by the British in-service), though seen lower, closer to the rear knob. An early rifle (1942) with a late scope (1945) and late war style bracket markings does not fit the pattern at all for a "factory matching as converted" sniper, as implied by the "factory style" bracket matching the rifle.
SCOPE: TEL. STG, C NO. 32 MK.II / R.E.L. /|\ CANADA / 1945 661-C / COS. 1650 A This scope appears to be real and would almost certainly have originally been assigned to a No. 4 MK. I* (T) in the 71L0xxx serial number range. e.g. Scope 595-C was factory matched to rifle 71L0451 and scope 690-C was factory matched to rifle 71L0573.
SCOPE CASE: An original mismatched British No. 8 MK. 2 (i.e. canvas) n poor condition. It appears to have been issued to a Trials No. 4 converted to sniper, RIFLE "A 226" SCOPE 17716 during an F.T.R. I recently sold my F.T.R.d 1931 Trials No. 4 MK. I (T) "A 1989" with No. 32 MK. 3 scope 25455 and it has a similarly marked and matching No. 8 MK. 2 case.
CHEST: An original British No. 15 MK. I. Original stencilling is still legible. Marked for a No. 32 MK. 3 scope as most are. The original leather carrying handles have been replaced with leather handles made from an old leather belt (note centre holes in left portion of front handle for belt buckle tang to engage).
Colin, the bolt is matched to the rifle but not originally so. Looks like a post WW2 Faz bolt body to me, what think you.......?
It most certainly did...look different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
Roger - I'll bow to your experience. So, matching serial number bolt, but after the fact.