Question for Camp Perry NM shooter late 50's early 60's

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04-15-2018, 04:21 PM
Joe W

Question for Camp Perry NM shooter late 50's early 60's

About 3 years ago I purchased a NM rifle on G.B. It looked ok and did have a SRS hit as having been in storage at Camp Perry in 1982. I latter found out that the rifle was a Army Team rifle obtained from the Army by CMP in 2007. I wrote to CMP for verification and received a letter indicating the rifle had been sold by CMP in July 2007 as a "M1 Garand N.M. Type 2 Excellent". I then researched the SRS hit and found from a letter dated 27 Oct 1982 from the DCM to Mr. F.P. Mallory of SRS which stated that the DCM included with the letter a "list of serial numbers of NM M1 rifles on loan to organizations supported by the DCM or in storage at the National Match Support Detachment (NMSD) at Camp Perry Ohio."
There were 59 rifles on this list that were identified as being in storage at the NMSD, Camp Perry on 10/27/82 including the rifle I own.
My question is, when did the M1 rifle cease to be used at the National Matches and no longer issued as "loaners" to competitors ?
I am trying to figure out about when this rifle may have went from storage at Camp Perry back to the Army, maybe the AMU. And just why the AMU would have had this weapon until 2007, when it was transferred to the CMP for sale. :banghead:
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks
04-15-2018, 07:07 PM
no4mk1t

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe W

About 3 years ago I purchased a NM rifle on G.B. It looked ok and did have a SRS hit as having been in storage at Camp Perry in 1982. I latter found out that the rifle was a Army Team rifle obtained from the Army by CMP in 2007. I wrote to CMP for verification and received a letter indicating the rifle had been sold by CMP in July 2007 as a "M1 Garand N.M. Type 2 Excellent". I then researched the SRS hit and found from a letter dated 27 Oct 1982 from the DCM to Mr. F.P. Mallory of SRS which stated that the DCM included with the letter a "list of serial numbers of NM M1 rifles on loan to organizations supported by the DCM or in storage at the National Match Support Detachment (NMSD) at Camp Perry Ohio."
There were 59 rifles on this list that were identified as being in storage at the NMSD, Camp Perry on 10/27/82 including the rifle I own.
My question is, when did the M1 rifle cease to be used at the National Matches and no longer issued as "loaners" to competitors ?
I am trying to figure out about when this rifle may have went from storage at Camp Perry back to the Army, maybe the AMU. And just why the AMU would have had this weapon until 2007, when it was transferred to the CMP for sale. :banghead:
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

The M1, M14, and M16 type rifles are all still authorized for use in the National Matches. Outside of the Games Matches, hardly anyone still shoots the 30 cal rifles because the AR's have the advantage.

Back when I was on the state rifle team, the club I was in was "loaned" M1 NM rifles from the DCM for marksmanship training and competition. These rifles were available to club members for use in clinics and matches, in some instances together with issue USGI ammo.
If you were a member of the state shooting association, and a firing member of the state team, you could request a M14NM. My state had 13 M14NM rifles and I had one issued to me from 1986 until the early 2000's when the insurance and storage requirements became burdensome and they were all returned.

I am guessing that your M1 was a "loaner" for use during the National Matches. I am pretty sure that this practice continued until the early to mid 90's. Probably ending for sure when the DCM was abolished in 1996. Up until that time, ammo was issued on the line and you had to call out "7.62mm, or Cal. 30" to the GI on the ammo wagon. If you said "308 or 30-06", you'd get that German Shepard look as they were not shooters and just read what it said on the box.

From the first year I went to Perry in 1986, all the military teams were shooting the M14, and continued to shoot it until transitioning to the M16 in the mid to late 90's. If there were any M1's on the AMU's books, they were for training in the type as AMU members would serve as coaches during Small Arms Firing School at Perry and would need to be familiar with the M1 if any of the students had one.

You've got a documented piece of Camp Perry history. Don't alter the rifle and keep all the paperwork, when the time comes to sell it, it should bring a premium. M1 NM rifles are easy to fake. Having documentation that yours is genuine, is gold.
04-15-2018, 09:10 PM
Joe W

no4mk1t - Thanks for your helpful reply. Do you know if the AMU members still serve as coaches during Small Arms Firing School at Perry ? I am thinking that if they do, some or all, of the 59 rifles listed as being stored at the NMSD in 1982 may have been turned over to the AMU by the DCM in 1996. That could explain how my rifle was still in the hands of the AMU as late as 2007 when transferred to the CMP.
04-15-2018, 09:30 PM
no4mk1t

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe W

no4mk1t - Thanks for your helpful reply. Do you know if the AMU members still serve as coaches during Small Arms Firing School at Perry ? I am thinking that if they do, some or all, of the 59 rifles listed as being stored at the NMSD in 1982 may have been turned over to the AMU by the DCM in 1996. That could explain how my rifle was still in the hands of the AMU as late as 2007 when transferred to the CMP.

My last year on the rifle team was 2000. At that time, all of the military teams provided coaches for SAFS.
You forget to take into account gov't inefficiency. The 59 rifles could have been forgotten and not been rediscovered until an inventory or audit brought them to light. Or they could have been retained for vintage rifle familiarity training for AMU armorers at Perry who would need to know how to repair them. Who really knows.
You are the steward of a piece of history. Keep it safe until you turn it over to the next steward.
04-16-2018, 05:30 PM
Joe W

The rifle I have has a 1951 NM marked barrel containing the 1960 code (diamond with flattened points). It has a few latter upgrades such as a 77 SA NM marked op rod and hooded rear sight aperture. Possibly in 2001 when the "issue grade" M1 rifles were returned to CMP the AMU took the NM rifles & pistols, then, in 2007, the AMU transferred the NM rifles to CMP. I wonder if CMP has received any NM pistols from the AMU along with those they will be releasing for sale in the future. Guess I will never know the whole story but at least I have a better idea. Thanks for the help.
06-21-2018, 11:42 PM
Frederick303

I was a competitor out at Camp Perry from 1989 to 2010.

When I went to camp Perry in 1989 I used a M1, and the ammo supplied for the NTI and P100 was M72 FA59, clipped. What a let-down, as the clipped lots were not that good. This is when the M1A/M14 shooters were being issued M852 white box dated 1988. The reason for this memory will be apparent in a moment.

So if you went as part of a club team, as a civilian you could draw a M1 NM or M14 NM and use what ever ammunition was being issued at the line (ammo was free once you paid for your score card, which was 2 or 5 bucks). This information was included as part of your competitor packet. I never saw a shooter draw a M1 in 1989, 1990, 1991 or 1992 as the ammunition issued was really the dregs or at least the possibility existed. But you could have done so if a shooter was so inclined. One had no idea what lot or year was to be issued in 30-06 before the match, and if you went to the Inter-service regional you might have been issued something else altogether. As you had to use the issue ammo it was such a detriment to good scores that no one serious used the M1 rifles prior to them allowing match ammo of your own vintage.

The last year you could draw a rifle like that, according to my memory was in 1993 or maybe 1994. The next year you had to pay for your ammo (no longer free) and the rifle issues were no longer allowed, if my memory serves me correctly.

The rifles were all property of the Army, but were not really current rifles in the Army inventory, being DCM held. The DCM was part of the army, a colonel in charge, not like the CMP today. They were simply there for use by the civilian competitors. No Army competitors used M1 rifles, they all had M14 rifles up until 1993/4 when the change over to the NM16A2 began. The last team to use the M1 rifles was the navy team, and the last year they used them as a team (not individuals) was in 1983, the next year they shifted over to the M14. In fact in 1983 the Navy Annapolis team used M14 rifles provided by the Marines. The M1 Garand vintage matches did not start until 1998 if my memory serves me correctly, so they would not have been used for that, in any case NM arms were not allowed in that category.

So the records indicate they were on issue to the DCM for marksmanship support or issued to a state association. After the DCM went away (Feb 1996) and the CMP took its place, all arms had to be transferred to the CMP as all the DCM rifles on issue were still army property. This occurred in batches which in the case of your rifle happened in 2007. It was likely never returned the AMU post 1993, it just moved from one stock category to another, as NM rifles had a separate NSN than the regular M1 Garand.

By that time I very much doubt many NM M1 rifles were still on issue to state associations, they mostly had M14 NM rifles by that time. Got mine in 1992 and gave it up in 1996, I think the CMP called them all back sometime around 2000.

If you need more precision than that I can go back an pull up my old competitor packets, I am pretty sure I have them though at least 1999.