Lithgow No. 1 Mk.III from 1924

Among a few other items from Malaysia (see the thread on the Omark rifle) was this Lithgow No. 1 Mk.III* (with the * then lined out again) rifle with a receiver date of 1924. For what I could tell all numbers were matching (including the nosecap - forgot to picture it; stock couldn't find one, but that might also be for it having seen quite a lot ...).


The butt stock has various markings - I had to chemically strip the "decommission paint" of Malaysia to make them fully visible. To my surprise a name, hand carved, "KF (or KE?) Doyle", was readable. I assume this might had been the soldiers name? Lithgow factory stamps are also faint visible. The brass disc, it was missing when I got it, but had one from another rifle at hand, so I put the unmarked one in.



Anyway, the barrel on the shank is '25 marked. I assume this means the barrel dates to 1925. Would this indicate it was the original barrel when factory made, or was it rebarreled already a year later?

Also, the receiver ring markings are a bit weird. It seems to have had the cutout for the magazine cutoff. The * must had been stamped (and for what I know therefore the magazine cut off removed), but the * then was lined out - so is it currently supposed to have a magazine cutoff?


The rifle has a lot Lithgow stars with numbers on it everywhere. Including the magazine and even some screws, plus the sling swivels, and even the buttplate trapdoor.

Nice old rifle with lots of character marks.

One of the harder dates to find without having a major repair or refurb of some degree. Big gap between the wood and action, most likely the draws are collapsed there. No matter, still nice collectable value, just don’t shoot it.

As Homer said, I wouldn't shoot it. Is the nosecap and forend numbered?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Homer

Big gap between the wood and action, most likely the draws are collapsed there.

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The huge gap is also a result of having taken off the stock for cleaning. I suppose if I give it a few light taps from front the gap would become smaller. It isn't noticeable when in hands, seems though I exactly positioned the camera at the perfect position to show it ;).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ufo8mydog

As Homer said, I wouldn't shoot it. Is the nosecap and forend numbered?

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No plans to shoot it anyway. And I had already mentioned in my starting post in the second sentence that the nosecap is matching, but I cannot find one on the foreend (I suppose for it having seen so much usage).


Based on the replies may I therefore assume this is its original barrel? I failed to find another one with a barrel from this period, all 1924 dating Lithgow rifles a Google search came up with were with a barrel from 1940s.


Also forgot to ask, anyone an idea on what the Z on the receiver ring means?

Promo i just di d a quick search for a KF of ke Doyle on the Australian war memorial site unfortunately no record of deployment under those initials and last name . Lots of Doyle’s served with 2./21 and 2/22 2nd AIF ww2 . Which would be more than likely ww2 due to the rifle MFG date . If only we could find out who had our rifles by serial number you could see where they went .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Also forgot to ask, anyone an idea on what the Z on the receiver ring means?

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Your Z looks to be quite 'discrete' and almost hidden away - in fact, could it be an "N" rather than a "Z" ?

Normally a Z means the rifle has been condemmed as 'unsafe' by a REME Armourer.

If it was marked ZF it would mean. "unsafe return to factory"

There is a long article 'in the library' by Peter Laidler where he explains the Z, ZF, BER etc markings.

Extract :

The Z means that it has been condemned at a Base workshop (that's the Z bit) as suitable only for a Factory Repair (that's the F part). This will indicate something to do with a part that cannot be rectified at Base Workshop and that is inevitably a damaged body. On a No4 rifle, this is what we call 'the master component', a part that is NEVER supplied as a spare part through the Ordnance channels.

There was only one other mark that was more extreme than ZF and that was ZF-BER. Which meant that in addition to the ZF, one of the examiners had decreed it to be beyond economic repair in any case. But effectively, both were the same......................

There was a milder Z-BER which indicated that it wasn't even worth sending to the factory and at workshops, these were torched!

Found this one for you promo
Name DOYLE, KEVIN FRANCIS
Service Australian Army
Service Number VX116073 (V195481)
Date of Birth 03 May 1923
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC
Date of Enlistment 02 Nov 1942
Place of Enlistment ALICE SPRINGS, NT
Next of Kin DOYLE, CHRIS
Date of Discharge 03 May 1944
Rank Corporal
Posting at Discharge 146 General Transport Company
Prisoner of War No

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

The huge gap is also a result of having taken off the stock for cleaning. I suppose if I give it a few light taps from front the gap would become smaller. It isn't noticeable when in hands, seems though I exactly positioned the camera at the perfect position to show it ;).

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Yes but when you tap the stock back to eradicate the gap there, it doesn’t eliminate the problem, it only shifts it to the adjacent end. Should be no allowance to move the forend at all.

Certainly looks like the original barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smerdon42

Found this one for you promo
Name DOYLE, KEVIN FRANCIS
Service Australian Army
Service Number VX116073 (V195481)
Date of Birth 03 May 1923
Place of Birth MELBOURNE, VIC
Date of Enlistment 02 Nov 1942
Place of Enlistment ALICE SPRINGS, NT
Next of Kin DOYLE, CHRIS
Date of Discharge 03 May 1944
Rank Corporal
Posting at Discharge 146 General Transport Company
Prisoner of War No

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Wow, excellent information! The rifle was made when he was one/two years old. I wonder how post WWII it managed to escape rebuild since I assume they would not had been very happy with someones name on a stock. Is there any chance to find out if someone from his family is still alive? Maybe they'd love to hear on their father/grandfathers rifle.


Edit: too amazing what Google came up with! Information on Kevin Francis Doyle himself!

Quote:

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Kevin Francis DOYLE

1923 – 1962

Born East Melbourne, Victoria,

Australia


Kevin Doyle was born on 3rd May 1923 to Christopher Doyle, a Land Agent, and Clara Doyle (nee Pfeil) of Clifton Hill in the Australian State of Victoria.

Kevin was educated at the Saint Thomas' College in Melbourne, and played first class Australian Rules Football (a form of Gaelic football) for the leading Melbourne team of "Fitzroy".

At 17 years of age Kevin enlisted in the Australian Army during World War Two, against his parents wishes. (This was achieved with the assistance of a "sympathetic" recruiting officer.) He then transfered to the Royal Australian Air Force for service as an aviator.

After leaving the R.A.A.F. at the end of World War Two, Kevin continued his studies and graduated as an Certified Accountant. He later qualified as Licenced Real Estate Agent and as a Sworn Valuer.

In the late 1940's Kevin was engaged as the Company Secretary of Warburton Franki Ltd; a large Melbourne-based electrical business.

In 1951 he married Miss Lorelei Agnes OWENS of Melbourne.


In 1956 Kevin and Lorelie moved to Perth in Western Australia to establish a successful Real Estate and Property Development Company.

In the years Kevin was prominent in the commerce of Western Australia he also became well known as a benefactor of the Catholic Church, and also provided active professional support for many European Catholic migrants newly settled in Western Australia. He was also a very active in conservative politics, and worked hard to prevent the election of communist candidates to the Australian Parliament.

In 1962 Kevin's health was failing rapidly due to war-related causes, and he then moved his young family back to Melbourne where he died a few months later, aged 39.

He is survived by his wife Lorelei, three sons, a daughter, ten grandchildren, and one great-grandchild.

He is laid to rest in a World War Two military grave in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

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Source (with picture of him): Doyle Clan - Memorium



RAAF might explain why and how the rifle survived anyway. Maybe it was at Butterworth Air Base in Malaysia too..