An now, for something completely different: Italian Breda 7.7 MG Fired Mk VII .303

Maybe everybody in the world already knows this, but I just came across a 1943 US Ninth Air Force report discussing the aero machine guns used by the Axis that included the page below on the Breda 7.7 MG. This report is irrelevant to the project I'm researching at the moment, but skimming it this sentence really jumped out at me:

"British standard .303 inch Mark VII ammunition functions satisfactorily in this weapon."

Coincidence, or by design?

Attachment 129986

(Sorry about the poor quality, but this is a scan of a microfilm reel frame cleaned up in Photoshop. Best I can do considering the original page appeared almost totally white on the microfilm...)

The picture here shows the representation of the cartridge you speak...mentioned specifically as 7.7x56R and see the Italian designation. Also the Japanese had a designation and cartridge. Here's a pic to accompany. So yes it's a .303.

WW2 AIRCRAFT GUN AMMUNITION (1) 7.7x56R (.303 British, Italian/IJN 7.7mm), 7.92x57 (MG 15, 17, 81), 13x64B (MG 131), 12.7x81SR (Breda-SAFAT, Scotti, IJA Ho-103), 12.7x99 (.50 Browning M2), 12.7x108 (Soviet UB), 15x96 (MG 151), 20x72RB (Oerlikon FF/IJN Type 99-1), 20x80RB (MG-FF/M), 20x82 (MG 151/20), 20x94 (IJA Ho-5), 20x99R (ShVAK), 20x101RB (Oerlikon FFL/IJN Type 99-2)

7.7x56R and 303 are the same ctg.
During WWI Italy adopted the .303" cal Vickers and Lewis guns for air service making the 303 British ctg their standard air service round. They also developed their own designs of aircraft MGs in 7.7 and projectiles.
Same story with the Japanese 7.7 RIMMED ctg.

The Japanese equivalent, a dimensionally identical round,appears to have been primarily a naval round, not surprisingly, because the IJN was VERY closely patterned on the Royal Navy, from ship and armament designs to uniforms and "mess tradition' (Delete rum, insert sake). They went down to details like adopting the RN standard "Admiralty" thread system that was still in use in Japanese ship-building until the late 1960s, at least

The Imperial Japanese Army was decidedly "Prussian" in style and equipment and possibly because the "Prussian style" was a better fit with "Bushido" and Samurai hankerings .

During a recent episode of "The Lost Gold of WW2", while looking for hidden gold on an island off the Philippines they found a rimmed cartridge case, obviously fired, as it was only the case. They were really scratching their heads on whether it was WW2 American or Japanese. As soon as I saw it I knew that it wasn't WW2 American, because it was rimmed, and I assumed that it must be British .303 or Japanese. After some research they discovered that it was actually a pre WW2 US Krag case.

Looking online it appears that the Krag round is dimensionally very similar to .303 British but fractionally different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

the Krag round is dimensionally very similar to .303 British but fractionally different.

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We that loaded 30-40 Krag for ages have found exactly that. I've used Krag dies to load .303 at times but not the other way round... I've bought Krag brass and found it had been done to .303 and .303 to find it had been changed to Krag. Shoulder placement is the main difference visually.

Would, in theory, .303 chamber in a Krag rifle being slightly shorter in length on the case than a Krag round? I'm not suggesting that anyone actually tries firing a .303 round in a Krag rifle before anyone tries it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Would, in theory, .303 chamber in a Krag rifle being slightly shorter in length on the case than a Krag round?

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I don't have one of each on hand presently but I don't think so, sizing an empty case is a different thing. Two factory rounds not likely would interchange.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Would, in theory, .303 chamber in a Krag rifle being slightly shorter in length on the case than a Krag round?. .

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In actual practice, a bit of extra force on bolt downturn will "re-size" the .303 shoulder enough to chamber the round fully in a U.S. Krag. Firing it would definitely not be recommended primarily because excess pressure might damage single locking lug.

Image below shows three different .303 rounds after force-chambering in my Krag (plus unmolested .303 and fired .30/40 for comparison).


https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....43&cid=1&stc=1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Firing it would definitely not be recommended primarily because excess pressure might damage single locking lug.

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Agreed, and the slightly oversize bullet might not help either.