Sterling Mk4 L2A3

Treated myself to one of the above yesterday at the War & Peace Show.:) Here's a couple of quick cameraphone pictures:

Attachment 74538Attachment 74539

I had a slow methodical delve through the dealer's crate of Sterlings and decided this was the nicest. I assume it's a plain vanilla commercial Mk4 supplied to who know's where back in the day, but is it dateable from the serial number? If the answer is 'consult The Guns of Dagenham' I don't have a copy and aren't likely to at current secondhand prices, but I may try putting in an inter-library loan request with my local library.

Cheers,
Mark

Mark, Is that EU spec or mid spec ?

Mid-spec. As with the MkV Stens, the cocking handle sits in a steel ring and can be pulled backwards. I was hoping to examine the EU spec guns on the World Wide Arms stall, but they only started setting up yesterday afternoon and didn't have any stock on display.

It's a big hit with my 2 sons being around 90% of a Star Wars stormtrooper blaster. :)

Had a more leisurely examination today and you can remove the trigger group, although the sear has been welded down. I took the grip off to give it a clean, but it ended up looking worse than when I started. Fortunately replacements don't seem to be too difficult to find. Despite the rear of the bolt being replaced with a short length of steel tube, the cocking handle feels less 'wobbly' when you pull it back compared to my MkV Sten. Possibly because the handle can still slot through the thingamabob (name?) on the end of the return spring.

It’s nice to see a body in its original condition. Most of the transferable Sterlings we see here are “tube guns.” The body is a new tube from just in front of the magazine housing to the back. They look pretty, but to me all the history of the gun is lost. Thanks for posting the pictures. :) :thup:

The thingamabob at the end of the return spring is called the cocking handle block.

Do all classes of military firearms have to be cut with a gas torch before being imported to the States, Vincent, or is it just certain types such as full/semi autos?

I don’t know the import laws very well. I do know machineguns have to be torch cut. The body of Peregrinvs Mk4 would classified as a machinegun receiver here and it would have to be torch cut per BATFE criteria. Barrels also have to be destroyed. Semi-auto rifles and shotguns can be imported, but there are some additional restrictions, like the Obama ban on guns from Russia. Maybe Brian can answer the question better?

Curio and relic, (50+ years old), semi auto and bolt action military firearms other than U.S. military issued are importable in functional condition as long as they are still in original configuration.

MG's must be torch cut in three places removing 1/4" of metal with each cut. Do you get the feeling the gubmint doesn't trust us or something. All military surplus barrels and breechblocks have been banned from importation since July 2005.

Does that mean a Sterling 'police carbine' could be imported Brian? Or is that too close for comfort!

Should be Peter, it's a non military semi automatic firearm, if I understand the rules correctly?

The police carbine is an open bolt gun. So it would be banned from importation under normal circumstances.

The whole point of the closed bolt system developed for the Mk6 and Mk7C was to comply with US laws and gain access to the vast civilian market in the States.

Must have my wires crossed, I thought the police carbine fired from a closed bolt??

No, it's not considered surplus military so not on the Curio and Relic list. Bush 41 banned import of most semi-auto SMG lookalikes in 1988 after a shooting in a Stockton, California MacDonalds using a semi-auto Uzi carbine. Knee jerk politics at it's best to appease the ignorant. It's getting to be a long time ago.

Speaking of the SA80: when I was a kid working in a gun and pawn shop in Ormond Beach, Florida in the mid 1980's, RSAF Enfield sent out questionnaires asking if there was a commercial/civilian interest in a semi-auto only model which I remember to this day filling out with a most enthusiastic "Yes please!". It wasn't long afterwards Bush 41 signed the import ban so it never happened. I'd just acquired a new in the box Sterling Mk.6, (that I still have but far from new now!), and I was going to be the first to lay my hands on the little bull pup in America if I'd had my way but it wasn't meant to be.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Does that mean a Sterling 'police carbine' could be imported Brian? Or is that too close for comfort!

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Open bolt police carbines can come to Canada, closed bolt are prohibited...

The closed bolt Mk.6 was specifically designed for importation to the USA. The Mk.8 was also imported as an SBR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Open bolt police carbines can come to Canada, closed bolt are prohibited...

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Interesting! Any idea what the rationale is for that?

Here the BATFE think open bolt guns can be more easily converted to machineguns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Interesting! Any idea what the rationale is for that?

Here the BATFE think open bolt guns can be more easily converted to machineguns.

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They were not in production, therefore not in the gun digest to be circled for banning, unlike all of the closed bolt sterlings.

Some more pictures showing how it's been deactivated. It's not as tactile as my pre-1995 spec Lanchester, but not totally mechanically dead.

Attachment 74678Attachment 74679Attachment 74681Attachment 74676Attachment 74677Attachment 74680

I was back at the War & Peace Show yesterday and was pleased to find a 1959 dated sling in a rummage pile for £3. It's the same 'jungle green' colour as my 1964 dated magazine pouch which is illustrated on the Karkeeweb website:

Infantry Equipment, Pattern 1958

Most of the surplus slings in the UK are 1980's dated and more of an olive green colour.

Which are things of great interest to us sad webbing fans... ;)

It’s interesting to see how it was deactivated. Is the breech block welded to the barrel?

Thanks for posting the pictures.

I was lucky to find some khaki web slings at the Knob Creek show a few years ago. The first I'd ever seen. Marked "SMG Sling Mk.1 MECO 1956". I have the usual British green web and a Canadian C1 SMG green web with steel fittings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vincent

It’s interesting to see how it was deactivated. Is the breech block welded to the barrel?

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The part of the bolt that covers the ejection port has been cut away from the rest of the bolt and then welded back inside the receiver. Behind that sits the steel ring into which the cocking handle and return spring sit. Unfortunately this means the cocking handle sits about 1/2 inch too far back. I've seen other post-1995 Sterling deacts where the rear half of the bolt is still there rather than the ring on this one.

I assume the front shroud bolts have blobs of weld on them to stop them being unscrewed. I wonder if this means they're not physically locked?

Yes the weld blobs are to stop Allen keys undoing them. The barrel is also pinned in place so I swopped the screws on mine. I've of the opinion that it makes no difference to the deactivation as not all of them have the screws welded. My pre 95 certainly didn't.

When fixing the front Barrel retaining screws on Deact Sterlings that I had cut.
I used to weld them on the threaded screw shanks inside the Reciever jacket. It was 'tricky' getting a welding rod through one of the cooling holes without touching the sides!
But, welding the threads from inside was much neater, & prevented them from being unscrewed. :thup:

Welding the screws from the back sounds like a good idea. It keeps the original look and the alphabet boys can’t question it.


This is about how most of them look when we get them here.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ingparts-1.jpg


We strip the usable parts from the torch cut body and make Mk6 copies with a new tube and semi-auto only parts. It would be almost the same amount of work to make a display. At one time display Mk4 Sterlings were selling for more than a functional Mk6 copy.

Blimey Vincent, torch cut in three places ... or blown up! Whats the deal with the the selective fire trigger mech, are these left untouched and reusable with a semi only mod applied ?

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

When fixing the front Barrel retaining screws on Deact Sterlings that I had cut.
I used to weld them on the threaded screw shanks inside the Reciever jacket. It was 'tricky' getting a welding rod through one of the cooling holes without touching the sides!
But, welding the threads from inside was much neater, & prevented them from being unscrewed.

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Seen quite a few deactivated with the barrel allen screws welded Mike, usually the body drilled on the left to the allen screw channel then the screw mig welded in place and ground back and painted. Not as neat as your system Mike..

Yes, the trigger mech gets modified. The sear is slimmed, a stainless steel pin is welded in to prevent the selector from going to automatic and section of the housing is cutaway. A steel pad is welded to body that blocks an unmodified trigger en bloc from going in.

I think that the reason for the screws being welded at the front, as well as any other extra fancy welding you might wish to add is to prevent the screws from being drilled right through from the muzzle end. Because when you drill into hex bolt heads, the drill always self-centres.

Not a thing of concern with the post 95 deacts where the bolt is welded in place I suspect as you can't just drill the screws and clonk the barrel out

When they did them here they cut the breech block at an angle from the outside front to the rear towards the mag housing. Then it's welded in place. The barrel must be plugged with a hard rod, front cut to an angle to deter driving out. Weld in place and pin from the outside, weld over that. The front screws are filled with weld. The trigger mech is removed and welded solid, then ground flat. The lock screw is welded in. The butt will likely not move because the rear cap will also be welded in place. Decide which mag you want in place because it must be reduced to 5 rds or welded inoperative, welded in place...

Pretty grim, then someone wants big money. The old cock and clicks were looking good...

That's a very comprehensive chop job Jim, a really solid wall hanger!

The old spec (pre October 1995) Sterlings here in the UK could be done in a variety of ways, some much nicer than others.

Some would have a huge section of bolt front removed, while others would only remove a small area of bolt to remove cartridge support.

I have seen Sterlings with barrels slotted and rods welded full length, to overbored and left clear with only a slotted chamber. All had the barrels welded home though (front, rear or both). Charnwood Ordinance deactivated examples are among the best I have seen.

With the exception of welded on barrels, the bodies are more often than not left alone, occasionally they are slotted by the trigger mechanism, trigger mechs are generally left alone.

My old spec was a Charmwood example and was mint. The block was cut at 45' at the front, the barrel slotted and riddled and then pinned to the body through the bottom into the breech. One of the best I've seen, the down side is that it was a NZ gun not a Brit issue.

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

My old spec was a Charmwood example and was mint. The block was cut at 45' at the front, the barrel slotted and riddled and then pinned to the body through the bottom into the breech. One of the best I've seen, the down side is that it was a NZ gun not a Brit issue.

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Yep, Charnwood seemed to employ engineers for the task, while others employed blacksmiths... (I also have an ex NZ Charnwood example in superb order) Good luck finding a British issue Faz made L2A3, Peter has gone into the reasons for their (almost) total absence from the collectors market before in some detail, basically, Government skulduggery again, caught with their trousers down manufacturing L2's at ROF Fazakerley without having the manners to inform, ask or pay royalties to The Sterling Armament Company !

A deal was reached, where Sterling would provide all export examples and spare parts and Fazakerley would solely manufacture examples for the UK, a caveat was also included detailing the scrapping of surplus Faz examples, prohibiting them from onward sale. (Is that about it Peter)??

That said, one of our merry band has a Faz example in his collection, so some got through .. I would guess, lost in pooled ordnance at some point, so escaped the axe! Got to be a rare example now..

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

I also have an ex NZ Charnwood example in superb order

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Do you have any pictures of it you could post?

I posted her a little while back mate, linky https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=56495

Oh, that one. It looks like new.

Would the Sterlings produced at ROF Fazakerley still have their mag housing engraved/stamped "Sterling" logic would say no? Or to put it another way does the "Sterling" on the mag housing indicate the type of smg or the company that made it?

The boxed "Sterling" logo indicates the company.

There is a picture of the ROF Fazakerley magazine housing markings on page 138 of the GoD book.

Another linky, a few years back this was covered in some fascinating detail by Peter

https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....9&d=1342556536

Yes. Those details are very interesting. :thup:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...20faznum-1.jpg

This breech block looks to have been made using different processes than most Sterling breech blocks I have seen. The numbers on it are large too. I am wondering if it’s early Sterling or ROF Fazakerley production?

Got round to fishing my No.5 bayonet out of storage + have fitted it with the early sling I found on Saturday.

Attachment 74743Attachment 74741Attachment 74742

A minor moment in bayonet collecting history... it's the first time the bayonet has been attached to a gun in the 16 years I've owned it. I got it at the first War & Peace Show I attended in 2000 and IIRC it was just south of £40. Even then, that was a good price.

I also have a couple of the magazine pouches and an example of the military type L1A2 magazine that I'd have liked to include, but they're currently deeply buried.

Cheers,
Mark

Afternoon Vincent, is that a small Fazakerley F56 I can see above the main number?

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

Got round to fishing my No.5 bayonet out of storage + have fitted it with the early sling I found on Saturday.



A minor moment in bayonet collecting history... it's the first time the bayonet has been attached to a gun in the 16 years I've owned it. I got it at the first War & Peace Show I attended in 2000 and IIRC it was just south of £40. Even then, that was a good price.



I also have a couple of the magazine pouches and an example of the military type L1A2 magazine that I'd have liked to include, but they're currently deeply buried.

Cheers,
Mark

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I would love to get hold of a bayonet to complete mine, I wonder if the NZ contact L2's were bought with bayonets and if so, were the bayonets "NZ" marked too??

Oh boy! Those pictures put smile on my face. It looks so original. :thup::thup:

I think a lot of guns and ammo are really going to be buried here soon. Some people are already buying those waterproof gun containers that are designed to be buried.

I would imagine that NZ simply used the bayonets that were in Ordnance from their old No5's that were issued and in use in Malaya. We had No5 bayonets in our armoury while I was there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I would imagine that NZ simply used the bayonets that were in Ordnance from their old No5's that were issued and in use in Malaya. We had No5 bayonets in our armoury while I was there.

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I didn't know they were a direct fit Peter, did the No5 Bayonets require any adjustment?

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Afternoon Vincent, is that a small Fazakerley F56 I can see above the main number?[COLOR="black"]

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Not sure, but I think it is “F56”.

Here’s a better picture of another one.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...A320bolt-1.jpg


So “F56” is a Fazakerley marking?

Here is my Sterling SMG, U.K. deactivated but mid spec with moving cocking handle. Will not cock/dry fire, however.

Could any-one, please, suggest likely previous owner/s. There are no signs of U.K. military issue markings which I can see. Thanks.

I believe there is a list in Peter's book Guns of Dagenham, covering contract S/N ranges, unfortunately I haven't got a copy and my own tinternet searches have turned up nothing..

It's not UK issue or NZ contact for what it's worth..

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by Vincent

Not sure, but I think it is “F56”.

Here’s a better picture of another one.

http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/i...2A3%20bolt.jpg


So “F56” is a Fazakerley marking?

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As far as I know yes, like Faz made L1A1 parts (of about the same date), they carried the F prefix and the date too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Could any-one, please, suggest likely previous owner/s.

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The late serial number puts it in the period where production records were “lost”. Peter would probably know if the records had ever surfaced.

The only thing I see out of the ordinary is it looks like the crackle paint was put on over a coat of smooth paint. The magazine catch was also painted.

Nice late production gun. Thanks for posting the pictures. Looks like you have got digital photography worked out. :thup::thup:

I've stated using the digital camera, Vincent, but I'm not too confident that I know what I'm doing with it at the moment. The Sterling came with what I would describe as a "commercial" or export mag rather than a U.K. military mag. I have since obtained a U.K. military mag and will post a picture of it another day showing the 2 mags side by side for comparison.

Those pictures are excellent, especially the close-up’s,,, very nice! :super:

And at a glance BEFORE reading the serial number. I could have told you it was NOT a British Issue Weapon. ALL L2A3 SMGs in Service, had a 'Y' Shaped plate welded in the 'U' section of the folding butt.

This MOD Plate was intended to prevent the Butt assembly from bending/ distorting in Usage. After recieving a blow to one side of it.
The plate was simply welded in, dressed to profile & painted with Suncorite 259.

I have an Extremely rare Fazackerly Manufactured Sterling. That came to Me without this MOD Plate fitted. it now has one correctly Fitted!....;)

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

And at a glance BEFORE reading the serial number. I could have told you it was NOT a British Issue Weapon. ALL L2A3 SMGs in Service, had a 'Y' Shaped plate welded in the 'U' section of the folding butt.

This MOD Plate was intended to prevent the Butt assembly from bending/ distorting in Usage. After recieving a blow to one side of it.
The plate was simply welded in, dressed to profile & painted with Suncorite 259.

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I posted pictures of this gun a while back.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...tt20yoke-1.jpg

The butt reinforcement was fabricated using the description and picture on page 265 of Peter’s Guns of Dagenham book as a guide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

I have an Extremely rare Fazackerly Manufactured Sterling.

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I would like to see some pictures if you get a chance.

Incidentally Vince, the extractor you show in thread 39 is in fact from the L34/Mk5. It is slotted and therefore lighter and........ Supposedly not interchangeable with the Mk4 and others - but they are. However in the workshop notes it does state that they shouldn't be mixed up.

Thanks Peter. I will put the extractor in my Mk5……… when I find that breech block.

Here are the two versions of the Sterling mag which I have. The upper mag in the pictures with 2 mags in view is what came with the deac and I call the commercial version. The other example I purchased separately and I believe is of U.K. military issue? The commercial version has an arrow and "OFF" on the end plate while the other end plate is just plain. The side view showing markings with "Sterling" and Patents etc is the commercial mag.

Yep, the other is U.K. military.

Here’s another version.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...07/pmags-1.jpg

I've got a funny feeling that all the magazines and manufacturers/details are detailed in that little book wot I rit some time ago.

That 9600039 is just the shortened NSN/part number of B3-1005-99-960-0039. The earlier ones had the old MoS part number of B3/CR-111A.

If you are looking for a Mk5 breech block Vince, I am sure that they started their life as standard Mk4 breech blocks. Failing that, you can internally lighten a Mk4 one to Mk5 spec and it'll work fine

Would the "F59" marking on one of my mags indicate manufacture at Fazackerly in 1959? Would the Sterlings that the R.U.C. had in store/issued in Northern Ireland have come via the normal British MOD procurement route or would the R.U.C. have found their own ways of obtaining them?

Thanks Peter. My Mk5 has the lightened bolt.

I tried a normal Mk4 bolt in it just to see what it would do. It was a tiny bit quieter and the cyclic rate was noticeably slower. It felt like it just barely managed to push the bolt back far enough, a bit like watching a slow-motion replay.

What’s the numbering system on the Sterling breech blocks?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...boltnum1-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...boltnum2-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...boltnum3-1.jpg

“S63” = Sterling 1963?

“9 602 153 M” the part number?

Last numbers. eg“6612” = the individual item number?

There’s also a mark under the numbers. What is it?

Nearly right..........
S63 = Sterling 1963
9 602 153 is space so as to confuse. The knowing read this as:
960-2153 = the last part of the full ordnance part number of B3/1005-99-960-2153
M-715 or whatever the number is is the Midlands Steel Stockholder (or whichever supplier) steel batch number.

The photos 1 and 2 show the marks of the very old fashioned shaping machine used at Sterling and adapted to rotate as it cut the external flutes in the breech blocks. Not shown on photo 3 as presumably a new cutter was being used!

Next questions..............

Someone on the sub guns forum said my knowledge was crap.......

F 59 indicates a Fazakerley magazine

The RUC Sterling guns were all commercial guns. Nothing to do with the UK Military

That's the one Vincent. I will dig my Faz Sterling out sometime & take some pics. You will see what I mean then. it is also in original blued finish, rather than the later crinkle paint finish.

When going through workshops for refurb or rustproofing. ALL crinkle finish was Vapor (Sand & Water) blasted off the recievers. Then parkerised, suncorite 259 paint sprayed. & baked in a hot oven for 30 mins to harden the finish. Then oil dipped to give them the Famous 'Enfield finish'.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Someone on the sub guns forum said my knowledge was crap.......

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I which case Pete, that 'Someone' is crap with THIER Knowledge!.........:D

Thanks Peter. Very interesting. I would never have gotten that.

The tooling marks on the one in picture #3 were erased when it was sand blasted and Parkerized.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ltnum222-1.jpg

Do you know what the marking in the box is? At first I thought it was a blemish. It’s on all the Sterling Mk4 breech blocks I have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Someone on the sub guns forum said my knowledge was crap.......

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Probably jealous and drunk or off his rocker. I wouldn’t give the fool a second thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tankhunter

That's the one Vincent. I will dig my Faz Sterling out sometime & take some pics. You will see what I mean then. it is also in original blued finish, rather than the later crinkle paint finish.

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Blued! That is unusual.

The Sterling crinkle finish is very hard to duplicate. I have never gotten it quite right. After my last attempt I am no longer allowed to touch “her” oven.

A blued Fazakerley Sterling Tankie........ Thread 61, 1st line! Are you sure? The spec was phosphate.

We did used to get some crinkle finished parts through the system, such as butt assemblies, butt parts and return spring caps but these were the remains of the banned commercial export guns that were held in Ordnance. The government were prohibited from selling them on for 'reasons' so they were stripped for their spare parts. Then the plucky Sterling company purchased the brand new casings back for, as it was described to me '......for less than £1 each.....' to be made into new guns for export.

I don't know what that mark is Vince and I can't say that I have ever noticed it before. Could it be something to do with holding during the hardening process?

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

I don't know what that mark is Vince and I can't say that I have ever noticed it before. Could it be something to do with holding during the hardening process?

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I don’t know Peter. I suppose it could be something like that.

Or may be a hardness test?

Mine doesn't appear to have it.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...6ub3jpeg-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...ofkejpeg-1.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brit plumber

Or may be a hardness test?

Mine doesn't appear to have it.

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They are not always in the same location. It might be on the other side.

Were the Mk4 Sterling bolts dropped forged into the basic shape before being machined? If so I wonder if the mark seen on Vincent's bolt was caused by a slightly damaged forging die? The mark looks like it may have been present on the bolt before being machined and was of sufficient depth not to be removed by the machining process.

They came as bar stock.

[QUOTE=Peter Laidler;370757]A blued Fazakerley Sterling Tankie........ Thread 61, 1st line! Are you sure? The spec was phosphate.QUOTE]

Pete, Leave it with Me for Now. & I will take some pics & put it here for all to see/ digest/ enjoy (?) I'm SURE it is a blued finish, BUT. My Workshop lighting is not brilliant!
So bringing it out into Daylight WILL reveal the truth. :) I'm Blimmin sure it is Blued, But hey Ho, we will see soon! ;)

Great find Mike, a very rare bird in civvy ownership in the UK, that's for sure!

The Fazakerley factory presented the Director of Infantry with the 1000th production Sterling SMG. And he didn't even know that Fazakerley were making them! Mind you, neither did anyone else....., especially Sterling!

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

The Fazakerley factory presented the Director of Infantry with the 1000th production Sterling SMG. And he didn't even know that Fazakerley were making them! Mind you, neither did anyone else....., especially Sterling!

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Ha,Ha,Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Brilliant Pete! Love it! :thup:

Had a bit of luck and have just acquired nice examples of a 1964 dated Sterling magazine pouch and a 1956 dated Sterling sling. It has the same markings as this "trials" one, but is olive green rather than khaki:

Original, Trials Pattern X9E1 Sling for Sterling SMG.

Attachment 76259Attachment 76261Attachment 76260

The pouches have always been hard to source. I have been lucky & have two of them. One was a VERY interesting & unexpected purchase surprise!......

After I had obtained a mint one, whilst I was handling it on the dealers stall. He informed me that the 'Padding' He had added inside it. Was to make it look better on 'display'.
he said he had put used newspapers in them. This was true when I pulled the potentially water absorbing newspapers out of the pouch!
Guess what I found?...............only a tag & seal attached to the pouch. This was a SEALED Pattern pouch, that was THE pouch that was THE Standard. That ALL other pouches were to be copied from!

It was also standard practice to have another TWO of these. That could & at times. & WERE, signed out by a manufacturer. To be used as a quality control sample, that nothing should be deviated from. I have observed this with Badges & such like. They have multiple dates & signiture's from various factories on a large label. Proving that they were indeed, used for quality control & retuned after a large production batch had been completed.

My pouch was not one of those, but THE sealed pattern. That ALL others were to be copied from! How lucky was that?.........

A few years ago here in the UK. The M.O.D had a VERY large clear out of anything that was obsolete & no longer in Service. It was all sold off to the civilian market. A LOT of sealed pattern, & contractors sealed pattern samples were in this disposal Trawl!
I have seen & Handled a vast amount of these. Most being badges & Insignia, & some being equipment. I did not see any more of these twin mag pouches.....;)

Piccies or didn't happen, tankie.[emoji1]

Until I saw one a couple of years ago, I didn't even know SMG pouches existed! As a rule, if you were carrying weapons, you were wearing standard ammo pouches as full battle order or what we called 'skeleton order'. So where did Sterling ammo pouches fit in I ask?

Here's ours. They sat at the front as seen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Until I saw one a couple of years ago, I didn't even know SMG pouches existed! As a rule, if you were carrying weapons, you were wearing standard ammo pouches as full battle order or what we called 'skeleton order'. So where did Sterling ammo pouches fit in I ask?

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I think they were intended for personnel armed with an SMG who weren't thought to require a large supply of ammunition. In my copy of 'The British Army in Ulster Vol.2' there's some rare pictures of a member of the RMP wearing them.

Nope, never saw them there either. Mind you, the Military Police are the least sort of person I'd like to see anywhere........ Stiff hats, stiff xxxxxx and xxxx-all sense!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

Piccies or didn't happen, tankie.[emoji1]

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Ha,ha! Well, I have an attic that is absolutely FULL of kit buddy! If I ever rediscover the pouches I will do some pics for the forum. If you chose not to believe what I
have posted. Then that is a matter for your good self. ;)

However, I will state here, that I am not in the habit of fibbing on a technical forum. That is suicide, unesscary, Pointless, & would be foolish in the extreme!

I have had a message this morning, gently 'Prodding' Me for Photo's of my Faz Made Sterling L2A3. This is MUCH easier to locate. & I will dig it out & get
Some photo's done for all on here soon.

So for now......It's, 'Wait, out'!.................:D

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Until I saw one a couple of years ago, I didn't even know SMG pouches existed! As a rule, if you were carrying weapons, you were wearing standard ammo pouches as full battle order or what we called 'skeleton order'. So where did Sterling ammo pouches fit in I ask?

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Pete, I am of the opinion that they were intended for the S.A.S. If you look at any OFFICIAL '58 Patt drop pouches. They have the same double long belt loops for suspension on the 'Belt Kit'. And as these pouches were rarely seen by run of the mill units & infantry in the field. That is part of my reasoning also.

I also think they were a further development of the 1944 Pattern webbing sets as well. As I have seen them in the past in the typical earlier lighter green webbing. I cannot recall looking inside for dates etc. But I think I probably did, but cannot say for certain. It was many years ago! They were intended for the Sten gun then.

I have met tankhunter and I have purchased items from him in the past. I can confirm that he is as straight as a die and a trust-worthy person; if he says that he has got the Sterling mag pouches then he has the Sterling mag pouches.

It was only meant in fun, because I wanted to see pictures. That's why I put the smiley face in.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:):):):):):):):):D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
:):):):):):):):):):):D:D:D:D:D:D:):):):):):):):):) :):)

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Originally Posted by gsimmons

It was only meant in fun, because I wanted to see pictures. That's why I put the smiley face in.

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:D:D:D:D:D:D:):):):):madsmile:

I have 2 of these, believed to be British?, pouches which are apparently just the right depth for Sterling mags. As can be seen I have tried 5 mags in them which is my entire stock but I think that at least 8 mags would fit and possibly 10, at a squeeze. As can be seen there are no internal devisions in the pouch and so I do not know that it is definitely intended for the Sterling.

Is the type of pouch that you were referring to tankhunter?

That's a standard 1958 Pattern ammunition pouch used to carry SMG or SLR magazines:

Infantry Equipment, Pattern 1958

They're what you would have used when carrying an SMG in combat.

And the little pocket on the side is for carrying your knife, fork and spoon. Not really....., it's for the Energa grenade launcher. But that was also another sad sorry saga.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

And the little pocket on the side is for carrying your knife, fork and spoon. Not really....., it's for the Energa grenade launcher. But that was also another sad sorry saga.

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And you know how much I like a sad sorry saga....

No F10, that is Nothing like the dedicated SMG mag pouch. As Perigrine has said, it is a Standard Handed '58 Pattern pouch. The opposite one has a loop on the side for a Bayonet. For the SLR or the SMG.

The 'Usual' unit issue of mags for the Rifle & SMG, when drawing your Weapon from the armoury. For ranges, exercises Etc. was x 6 Per Weapon, plus a cleaning kit & sling.

I KNEW that you'd ask Vince! Off at a tangent for Vince. So look away now if you despair of my going off at a tangent.

When the No4 rifle was in service, the Energa launchers were issued with the leather pouches. But when the L1A1 came on stream, the then 'new' grenade launcher was issued with instructions that the old No4 type would be withdrawn BUT quartermasters would retain the leather pouches for the new L1A1 type launchers, issued 1 for 1 at Battalion level. So far, so good. But as the new '58 pattern webbing came on stream, it already HAD a pocket for the launcher so the leather pouches sat on the QM's shelves for years........ and years....... and years! Finally in the early 70's no less, instructions were issued that they should be reduced to scrap or salvage locally. To be honest, they were useless for anything else so they were simply put in the bin (the little lift-the-dot closing studs were useless anyway but there was a VAOS part for a replacement set.....).

That is the reason why the little leather pouches are rarer than the launchers. Every Battalion had about 200* nominated 'grenadiers' so multiply that by Infantry Battalions in 1970 PLUS Ordnance stocks and it's plenty. There were some being advertised on that auction site about 5 years ago and I suggested that everyone should get one while they could. Deaf ears I suspect..........
* Germany, don't know about UK

Thanks Peter. Now we know why there are so few of the pouches. :thup:

Discussed here in March 2014:

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=48080

I got one off eBay about 3 years ago for a very reasonable price as the seller didn't know what it was. Like the launchers, I believe the pouches were made in Belgium.

There's one here for sale:

British Army Energa Grenade Adapter Pouch | Post WW2 Militaria | World War Wonders

I purchased this cleaning kit some time ago together with a couple of SA80 cleaning kits and the vendor thought that it was intended for the Sterling SMG but wasn't sure, neither am I. It was incomplete when purchased and there may still be items missing or incorrect items for the Sterling currently in it.

I was wondering if I could have confirmation that it is definitely a Sterling cleaning kit, please, and if so are there any bits missing or incorrect bits?

Thanks for any information.

That's the original L85A1 kit, the green scotchbright pad is a no no, we were never allowed to use them as they are to abrasive, only the red.

The brushes with the steel bristles before the copper are the chamber brushes with the barrel extension brush. You always end up using something else to clean out the extension as the bristles bent anyway.

There should be a green plastic oil bottle for the pouch and a few more extensions for the rod. Oh and a nylon pull through. And a copper brush. Probably more I've forgotten.

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Of course the multi tool too

I asked about Sterling cleaning kits on another forum in 2012:

L2A3 Sterling SMG Cleaning Kit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by peregrinvs

I asked about Sterling cleaning kits on another forum in 2012:

L2A3 Sterling SMG Cleaning Kit

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And it was Me (Ferretfixer) That clarified most of the questions. ;) LOL

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

...
... All military surplus barrels and breechblocks have been banned from importation since July 2005.

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And breechblocks?

M

Yes Mike, barrels, breechblocks and bolt assys. Not just MG stuff either. Anything military surplus. The won't allow new stuff either unless documented for the police or military. F.A.I.R Trade Group and NFATCA have petitioned for years to change it but it hasn't happened for obvious reasons with our unfriendly gov't.

heres a pic you may like if not seen before