"ZF" marking on Enfields?

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Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)

I would have to agree that at the very least your butt plate has been replaced as Long Branch No4’s came with ether a Blued steel or Zamac (sp.?) one. Is your butt stock LB marked? Also to the best of my knowledge Canadian FTR’s were not painted with Suncorite. The 4 or 5 in my collection are all Park’ed. In 1943 the original finish would have been blued.

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The buttplate is brass. There are a few confused marks in the back of the trap, the only marks on the plate itself are on the inside, between the screw hole and butt trap. It has an inset "F" and a raised "FI" below.

The butt has B over 56 and the C with the broad arrow in it directly behind the trigger guard underneath.

You can see my confusion- the butt ZF marking, all original '43 parts (except butt and plate?) no FTR or even repair markings, but painted with suncorite and still greased!

Late British tidy up (paint- hence my Q for Peter...) - butt and buttplate replaced from the used parts box before sale?
Who knows-
Who cares I suppose... It looks very nice.

I can assure you that IF you had a 'chit' from the WO 1 you could indeed have a brand new and UN-numbered spare receiver issued AFTER you turned in the old and condemned one(this was at No25 CAOD).All that I saw were dated 1943 at that point although I LATER saw a few used to FTR British rifles with dates in the 1950's.These appeared when the "War Reserve"No 4's were sold off a Surplus in the 90's and imported to Canada.Just like the FIRST Canadian Arsenals made No2MkI* 9mm pistol slide I ever saw was when I was issued a Hi-Power to go shooting one Wednesday afternoon at the 25yd range behind the Parachute Reg't Museum at Aldershot.I was a popular lad there due to my having 'arranged' the new engines for their Dak that paid for the Geodesic Dome over said aircraft.
Canada DID have spare receivers sans any numbers for the No4's as well as the better known C No7 .22's.Spare UN-numbered Inglis Hi Power frames were ALSO available.JR

In the U.S. we have three levels of maintenance Field, Intermediate and Depot level, items marked “beyond local repair” ended up at depot level for disposition.

From reading Mr. Laidler’s comments he is referring to “field” level disposition and not “depot level disposition”.

At depot level an end item can torn down and the worn components scraped and disposed of and be re-born during overhaul with the same serial number. I made these decisions for 25 years and wrote the work packages for the work to be performed.

It sounds like we have people here who were at “different levels” of British and Commonwealth maintenance making comments.

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Hello Ed:

This was related to me by a now deceased Canadian Army RCEME Armourer late of Truro Nova Scotia.Elliot Campbell was his name and he was a truly lovely man as well as a well of information.

In brief Elliot joined the Canadian Army and was a RCEME Armourer BEFORE WWII was declared in 1939.

Most of us CANADIAN Enfield "Nuts" have two"holy grails" as it were.The First being an unfiddled with Long Branch No4MkI(NO STAR) and the other being a Long Branch No4MkI*T.I am lucky enought to have both.

It seems that in early 1945 a"Change Order" was issued down the Canadian Army's chain of command that mandated the CONVERSION of ALL UNIT HELD No4MkI rifles to No4MkI* status.According to Elliot unit level armourers HAD the necessary fixtures to effect the change too.You were to DISASSEMBLE any No4mkI rifles down into their component parts and then TRANSFER all the parts(obviously NOT the bolt catch etc) to a brand new and un-numbered No4MkI* receiver and then RENUMBER the new receiver to the OL or 1L number and after it passed all inspections return the rifle to unit stocks of SERVICEABLE Rifles.The now stripped No4MkI receivers were to be either destroyed or returned to Ordnance for disposition.

No25 CAOD was Canada's CENTRAL Ordnance Depot at the time I was posted there to "acquire" the necessary skills" to be our Unit Armourer as a 15 year old Reservist(MILITIA) in the Victoria Rifles of Canada.I came in on a waiver being UNDER the age of 17 the normal age for attestation with parental consent.By age 17 I was an Officer Cadet in McGill University's COTC.I REALLY ENJOYED my summer at No 25 and learned a lot the 'hard way'.we were ALL volunteers and the WO I was a PRINCE(provided you DID YOUR WORK to HIS STANDARDS.I had to get up at 04:30 to catch a bus at )5:00 into Montreal from our home on Montreal Island's FAR Western Lakeshore.Once I hit Montreal I transferred to ANOTHER bus which headed out along Notre Dame St EAST to the far reaches of EAST Montreal Island at Longue Pointe where No25 CAOD was situated.Four PLUS hours in transit every day PLUS anything we had going at the Victoria Rifles on week nights and weekends.At CDN$3.14 per diem I wasn't getting rich.Being in uniform and posessing travel orders etc I am GLAD I wasn't paying bus fares I assure you.

We DID have No4MkI* receivers,Sten (MkII Mag Housings) Bren MkI and MkII receivers and Border City Industries M1919A4 Receivers ALL of which were UN-numbered spare parts.Same story with FRAMES(boxes stated BODY) for the No2MkI* Pistols. Now that I think about it I am sure that I still have a No25 CAOD box for a No4MkI* receiver in my stash of No4 parts.I'll try to dig it out and see if a friend can photograph the label for posterity's sake here.

All I did as a unit level armourer was keep our unit small arms in condition for periodic ordnance inspections ALL of which I passed with flying colours.I was also on the rifle team with Sgt Tommy Richardson as NCOIC and our mentor in all things pertaining to shooting.I miss him too as he died about two years ago.Thankfully not before I was able to buy all his barrelling fixtures and tooling.As a result I can rebarrel anything from a LE or LEC 1 to a C No4MkI* with all the correct wrenches and clamps etc.

So,as can be seen UNITS did have the equipment and experise AND the spare receivers to effect transfers of serviceable parts from one receiver to another at various points.Canada had HUGE stocks of spares for small arms like Thompson SMG's and M1 Rifles and Carbines at No25 CAOD when I was there too.The Air Force at Trenton had their equivalent of No 25 with tons of things like brand new Royal Typewriter M1918A2 BARs too.

I built for myself WITH permission from on high(the WOI i/c) a WINCHESTER M1 Garand and a M2 Carbine(NO FA Parts on board) after the WO I gave me the receivers(numbered to be sure) and a chit to get the parts from the tool crib.I still have a No25 CAOD box of M1 Rifle WINDAGE knobs that came back to Canada from Denmark in 1999.I can safely assume that Canada shipped all or most of it's M1 Rifle spares to Denmark under the NATO agreements.

I have also seen barrelling equipment for No4's as well as C1A1 rifles at places like CFB Chilliwack in the early 1980's so never say never is probably best.

Bedtime here,

Cheers,

John R.

The ZF mark.

Badger asked me to comment on the ZF mark on No4 rifles and I reported back in pretty-well general terms exactly what it meant to ALL British, Australian and New Zealand army equipment. It’s not difficult. Now, I cannot comment on Canada because I’ve never been there. I’m not here to tell you a load of unsubstantiated rubbish….., it’s all freely available for you all to see but what I do want, is for you to take it on board.

I would also ask you to read again the thread that deals with DP rifles because it’s pretty clear that some out there in Forum land know more about these than they’re letting on. Or alternatively, THINK they know more about these than they’re letting on……….

Up until now, I’ve been the polite Mr. Laidler, long, long time Armourer, with a modicum of experience under his belt from working in the MASSIVE Base workshops, to the smaller Infantry/Field workshops and the small, pretty-well self contained workshops. These range from…….. I won’t go on. I don’t want to rock any boats. Until now that is! I’m going to gingerly pick my way through the comments in this thread and tell you how it is. I hope the Editor lets it run because what I’m saying will lay a few myths to bed and maybe, in a few instances, prick a few where it hurts.

Are you ready………? Then I’ll begin

If your butt has a letter R over the word REME, either painted or stamped, it means REJECTED BY THE REME EXAMINER. It doesn’t mean repaired or repairable, it means, listen to me – REJECTED. It’s marked with the REME logo to show those back in the Base Ordnance Depots that it is a REME reject as opposed to an Ordnance reject. Only the highest level of REME in-inspector will mark this and the REME overrule the Ordnance in all things engineering. That’s why we are called engineers.

Now, the next thing………. The R-REME or ZF is painted or stamped onto the butt because there’s nowhere to paint it on the rifle body. Imagine a Bren with a jammed-up solid gas cylinder needing a FTR to replace it (and they do jam solid too…..). Would the examiner paint the ZF on the gas cylinder? OF course not! Look and think logically those forumers who think and write otherwise………… When we write off vehicles, we paint the word CAST in yellow paint on the bonnet, even if it’s a well worn out Bedford with a cracked and buckled chassis. Is that clear enough?

And another thing while were here. While some, including Tikirocker seem to doubt this and think it ought to be stamped on the rifle PART………, even when we DO, as in the case of DP kit, do they then doubt that too. You just can’t win. But furthermore, you just can’t have it both ways lads

I’ll give you an example. While in the US recently a dealer at one of the shows showed me an L1A1 rifle. A good, solid, British BSA that looked in GOOD overall condition. But there, winking at me from the butt were the dreaded, yellow painted letters, ZF….., which he assured me was Zimbabwe Forces. I told him that I didn’t think so because a) it was good, b) had been oiled in the past c) hadn’t been flogged to death and d) the barrel looked both straight and was fully painted in good old hard wearing sunkorite. So he passed it back to me and getting my in-inspectors hat on, gave it a quick once over. And sure enough, the rear body locking lug was worn out. The tell-tale mark was on the left side that a No2 (oversize) catch was fitted too! Body not just worn out, but TOTALLY worn out.

Now, the mystery of the ZF butts on ‘good’ rifles. I’ll ask you the obvious question with a statement first. Do YOU or your gunsmith have the gauging and examination kit that we have at even the lowest echelon unit Armourers shop? I doubt it but you never know… So the question is ‘just how do YOU know that the butt has been changed? The answer is that you don’t. Try to understand when I read constantly that the ZF butt has been changed! If it has, then remove the bloody ZF and be done with it. But don't let it stand there chuckling at you like a set of Christmas lights.

Jona is NEARLY right about us using our kit over again. When your rifle goes back to Ordnance as a ‘scrapper (or a ZF in Armourers language ……get it…., it’s that word again…?) it is disposed of by torch or gulllotine as a whole complete unit or sale as scrap to some dealer who wants to earn a fast buck. Some parts are cannibalized and returned to store but they go through a RSSD, attached to a REME workshops – again! That’s a ‘returned stores sub-depot’ for you non Armourers, where the parts are examined, tumbled etc etc etc parkerised and painted to new condition and re-packaged, returned to the shelf and re-issued in the fullness of time with the packaging marked PW (for Part Worn). That’s where we get our reconditioned engines and refurbished Bren gun butt slide assemblies, right down to foresight protector screws. But all ASSEMBLIES, and major parts, like Bren barrels, breech blocks and the like are re-packaged and it is made clear on the packaging that they are re-worked parts. They are sent out again like NEW. Can you imagine a reworked butt being sent through the system still bearing the ZF paint on it. Just think of the confusion…………… Come on!

At unit workshops, the Armourers will touch-paint the parts that need it while at a big Field workshops, they’ll just degrease and spray the weapons over the old paint and air dry (in my experience due to lack of paint oven but in Malaya, ‘air drying’ in the baking heat was pretty damned good!) while at Base workshops, they get the full in-inspection full repair and full out inspection. Obviously some weapons can be fully rebuilt to new condition at Base workshop and suddenly fail, to be condemned as ZF-BER because of an unforeseen fault, such as too high sear on a previously staked body or loose locking shoulder. You know what I mean……………….

I’m grateful to the Maestro Ed Horton for exhibiting the picture, not previously shown on this forum, of the repairs to the No5 rifle. Was this a joke Tiki or have you everso slightly lost the plot of what these forums and the hard working authors are trying to convey? I did have time before it was removed, to pass it on to some other Armourers to choke on their tea-cakes. Coke tins and swipe cards………… I’m doing my best to be polite but the words absolutely fail me. It’s fair to say that I have NEVER, ever seen…………. I won’t go on, but thanks Ed! And there again, as bold as brass, the infamous REME REJECTED and ZF signs proudly pop up like pop stars on the TV. Just take my word for it Tiki, there is NOT an answer for everything. LOOK AND LEARN.

But now, it’s time to eat a bit of humble pie to JohnR. I said on a previous thread that what we call ‘the master component’ was NEVER available as a spare part. This was obviously to prevent a budding Armourer making up a rifle out of spare parts. I even related the story of Craftsman ‘Tiny’ Davidson in Malaya who did somehow manage something similar in Malaya with a No2 pistol and being caught with it in his locker by Sgt Doug Baker (later killed with 8-RAR in SVN). Doug told Johnny Cotterill, our Armourer Sergeant later ‘Tiny does 28 days in the can (as we called Holdsworthy Jail) or I lose my pension. It’s simple. Tiny does 28 days'! I have learned that at the big combined RCEME/REME workshops in WERL in Germany, Canadian No4 and Bren bodies were available as replacement parts but only from Canadian Ordnance. This was cut short very quickly but quite clearly, Canadian Ordnance did supply master components and I should imagine, was awash with unlawful weaponry……….. But not in the UK, Australia or New Zealand.

Now, where were we. Ah, yes! If your rifle exhibits the glowing ZF or DP marks, then take a bit of advice. It’s there for a reason, I’ve covered all your bases but moreover, YOU don’t know why it’s there but at least the Forum has erred on the side of safety

Peter Laidler

John, Thanks for that. It explains a perfectly normal Long Branch No.4Mk.1* that I have here with a hand stamped serial number from a 77L, (1944 dated), rifle on the butt socket. The receiver is a Parkerized CAL/LB replacement marked C No.4Mk.1* and dated 1956. It's also one of my favorite rifles to shoot.

I also have a 92L Long Branch rifle that's had it's receiver replaced with one from a 1943 Maltby No.4Mk.1! The Maltby serial number has been linished and the Long Branch serial number stamped in it's place. It's a real oddball indeed but feels right as rain. The kind of thing that always stirs my curiosity. Brian

I had gone over my ZF marked No4. Thanks to your detailed account of the markings, and the likelihood the butt was not re-used with the marking left on it, I'm going to go all over it again with the jeweler's loup, all the gauges and the Canadian Manual as presented here for download.
I'm pretty confident it will be ok, mainly owing to the commercial proof marks on the barrel, but I will leave nothing to chance for the sake of safety, and do everything by the book. I'm still a novice on No4's, so it will be page by page.

Thankyou Brian also- After reading John R's posting I was hoping someone would have a rifle with a serial number (or something) that didn't fit the date to demonstrate what to look for. :beerchug:

Now listen for the sound of "ZF's" being quickly scrubbed/linished from buttstocks around the world...:rolleyes:

It is a shame that some people in our forums would question and insult a trained Armourer in the hopes of carving another notch in their pistol grip signifying that they had gunned down someone else.

Some people can’t get over the fact that they told everyone in our forums that the wondering zero problem never existed only to find out it did in fact exist and have to eat their words.

The real problem in our forums is the fact that anyone with a computer and two fingers can write anything they want to. And then depending on their status and position in a forum they frequently get away with using bubblegum and bailing wire methods to fix the Enfield rifle.

I tracked down all the Enfield books and manuals down I could find because the books and manuals don’t have oversized egos that constantly need feeding, and these manuals never ever lie about the facts.

Words fail me on how lucky we are to have Mr. Laidler in our forum so I just want you to know Mr. Laidler I would give you two thumbs up but the other hand is holding the camera. :D

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Originally Posted by jmoore

Now listen for the sound of "ZF's" being quickly scrubbed/linished from buttstocks around the world...:rolleyes:

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Remember sand with the grain of the wood :rolleyes:
(if the wood smokes your pressing too hard)

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