How do I present a full cleaning kit with Enfield Rifle

[QUOTE=madcratebuilder;105752]..........................
The oil bottle is good to store a spare extractor, spring and broken shell extractor.


The tin was used with the No.5 but I've never heard of it being issued with the Rifle No.4. It may have been but I think the tin is more a post WW2 thing and used for all arms including the semi-auto rifle.

The oil bottle? The broken shell extractor won't fit in the oil bottle and if you store spare parts in it, where will you keep your oil? Oil is guaranteed to be needed and the average soldier was not encouraged to replace broken extractors and springs. Not that they couldn't, it was just that they were going to need oil more than spare parts. Unit armorers had the spare parts.

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Originally Posted by gew8805

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The oil bottle? The broken shell extractor won't fit in the oil bottle and if you store spare parts in it, where will you keep your oil? Oil is guaranteed to be needed and the average soldier was not encouraged to replace broken extractors and springs. Not that they couldn't, it was just that they were going to need oil more than spare parts. Unit armorers had the spare parts.

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Absolutely correct in WW1 & WW2 the soldier couldnt go home in the evening, and in the comfort of his own home, strip down and clean his rifle - we can.

Slide forward 50 - 100 years
We dont need oil in the bottle (and anyway, most of them leak and oil-soak your butt.

Its a great idea to have easily broken, small parts on hand when at the range or out hunting. a broken extractor can ruin your day, but if you've got one with you it can be fixed in minutes.
I have a 'repair kit' in an oil botle for each of my 303s - and yes - a broken case extractor easily fits in the bottle (but you do need to unscrew/remove the spoon) You can even fit in a small watchmakers screwdriver.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00111-1.jpg

In all of my dealings with No4 rifles, I have NEVER heard of a ruptured/separated cartridge case with a No4 or 5 rifle. It's almost impossible to happen, even in a very rough/corroded/pitted chamber because of the gentle primary extraction process when you lift the bolt. You cannot override it, it happens. The leverage overcomes the friction, breaks the taper seal and out comes the case. The ruptured cartridge extractor is for the likes of the Bren and Vickers where there is a violent direct 'pulling' or dragging of the case from the chamber.

Having said that, even the Bren has primary extraction when the breech block drops to unlock, it rotates about bottom front corner (where it grips the piston extension) against the breech block stops and the extractor that has tightened up due to the camming action of the extractor stay, digs in and gently levers the case loose, breaking the tapered seal, ready for it to be drawn to the rear and out of the gun.
Vickers, yes, Bren occasionally/rarely, Rifle no..., I've never seen one. It was never part of the rifle kit and not issued to the soldiers. It was part of the Bren kit though

BTW, I've one BREN barrel that very regularly leaves the case neck behind to tie things up when the next round is fed. Polishing so far hasn't worked, and it was a "new" barrel, so it doesn't get used... Maybe worth a new thread one day on the BREN forum.

Don't need a ruptured case extractor here either. If the loaded round can be coaxed out, the offending case neck is generally well married to it!

:bash:Sorry, back to the subject---what was it again??:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

In all of my dealings with No4 rifles, I have NEVER heard of a ruptured/separated cartridge case with a No4 or 5 rifle. It's almost impossible to happen, even in a very rough/corroded/pitted chamber because of the gentle primary extraction process when you lift the bolt.

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It doesnt happen with 'new' ammunition in the Military, but can happen in the civilian world with reloaded cases. The thin "American" brass (particularly S&B where 2 reloads is often enough to get a case seperation) is particularly prone to it.

No doubt Ed can post some pictures showing the thinning of the 'web' area.

Mmmmmmmmmm. That's got me thinking...... JM. When cases separate in a Bren, you'll usually get a few during the course of the day from the same Bren (L4's were the same) and then it was usually excess CHS but not as we think of it - but the gun-crew having the barrel from another gun fitted, mixed up during pre firing cleaning etc etc while in the back of the Bedford.

When you lift the bolt to unlock and extract don't forget, the bolt comes back about .1" or so and that gentle rotation allows the extractor to slide down the extractor way, grip the rim and just break the taper seal. It will have to be a VERY weak case (or severely pitted chamber etc) for that friction to overload the primary extraction forces imparted by the bolt. I'm not saying that it's impossible of course as I only use government ammo.

I've only ever had one separation of a service .303" ball in 20,000+ rounds, and that one was a 1918 round off which I'd had to sandpaper the verdigris - so I forgave it!

I'm not even convinced people need to go out and buy spare extractor springs & claws for their "emergency spares" tin - they'll probably never need them and the dwindling worldwide stocks of these small parts will just end up being lost & unused in the junk in people's sheds. If people are scared about breaking them then they should magazine load their rounds instead of single loading them loose off the top of the mag follower...

Semi-auto BREN. New (as in "unfired" when I got it) barrel, S & B as well as South African 1980's vintage ammo. No reloads.

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Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield

Absolutely correct in WW1 & WW2 the soldier couldnt go home in the evening, and in the comfort of his own home, strip down and clean his rifle - we can.

Slide forward 50 - 100 years
We dont need oil in the bottle (and anyway, most of them leak and oil-soak your butt.

Its a great idea to have easily broken, small parts on hand when at the range or out hunting. a broken extractor can ruin your day, but if you've got one with you it can be fixed in minutes.
I have a 'repair kit' in an oil botle for each of my 303s - and yes - a broken case extractor easily fits in the bottle (but you do need to unscrew/remove the spoon) You can even fit in a small watchmakers screwdriver.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SCF00111-1.jpg

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Alan, you make excellent points (as did madcratebuilder) but I like my oilers in original condition and will not deliberately break the spoons out of the plastic ones or de-solder the spoons from the brass ones. I do keep a broken shell extractor handy just in case but I have never needed it and never expect to, it's just a neat thing to have. Spare extractors and their springs and screws are kept at home in my shop, I don't expect them to break at the range and if one does it is not a matter of life and death, I can fold up and go home for repair, no big deal, better luck next time. I do have spare metal spoons for the brass oilers, I have repaired a couple. Maybe I should have used those to carry spare parts but the rattling that they would have made would have driven me nuts. Besides, the brass oilers don't leak and I do keep one in the but of my Longbranch and have used the oil and even the pullthrough. We just look at things differently and if what you do works for you, that's great. We have a good time and that's what counts. :thup:

While talking of the metal tin for the cleaning kit, I seem to remember from Malaya days that it originally had a B1/BJ xxxx part number, indicating that it was designed for the No5 rifle because the No5 didn't include a place for the basic cleaning kit as did the No1 and 4. It was also issued for the Sterling SMG but I don't think it was issued for the No4 but I'll check. The design changed slightly for the L1A1 and then became the plastic universal type.

Interesting (?) subject though