Sorry imoore, I must be a little thick as I don't understand the post.....
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Sorry imoore, I must be a little thick as I don't understand the post.....
Age is getting to me.
Sorry, Read6737, I was responding to both you and Jim (see the end of his post, above). His reference to Hadzici (and its misfortunes) brought back memories of a bit of uranium with which I almost had a close encounter. Do the Google thing on Hadzici (or TRZ.5) if you haven't made the Yugo sniper connection yet- it IS a bit tenuous, I'll admit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim
What I was referring to is that Yugo Mausers were refurbed at a number of different shsops only one of whose (1.TRZ- TRZ= Tehnicki Remontni Zavod- Technical maintenance and repair Institute-) location was known (Cacak, Serbia). There was a second hand (somebody told me) report that TRZ.5 was at Hadzici but no documentation and Branko would only deny any knowledge of its whereabouts. A friend and I set out to to verify or otherwise find the location. We were able to amass enough evidence that we could be reasonably certain and state that the Yugoslav Mausers reworked at and stamped/engraved TRZ.5 (or TRZ-5) were done at Hadzici, very likely at the predecessor to TRZ-H (H for Hadzici). Evidence included NATO reports, Personal interviews, and other such records. We published our findings in an article in the MILITARY RIFLE JOURNAL titled "TRZ.5, ALL ROADS LEAD TO HADZICI."Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
So far, none of the other locations have be located though some evidence suggests that TR137 was nearby or possibly even in Hadzici since their are a great number of work shops in the area. Getting information from the area is very difficult due to past ethnic violence, soil and water contamination from munitions including depleted uranium being scattered in the area from NATO bombing.
Anyway, this goes waayyy beyond the scope of this topic... sorry.:o
I read that article ( rather quickly, though, I must admit) and some other bits that popped up on the internet, hence my further diversion, but it DOES still (if somewhat obliquely) tie into the subject, so nothing to be sorry about, it's normal for these threads. I'm more to blame than anyone!
It's quite educational so far- more please!
I'll gladly share all I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
As a moderator on another site (two actually) I am well aware that threads very often take on a life or direction of their own. Personally, I have always felt that, as long as they stay in line with the general premise of the site/forum, this can be a good thing. A lot of info or answers to questions folk haven't thought to ask can get answered.
But I think any further discussion of Hadzici or other Yugo Mausers properly belong on another topic. And I question the interest in that considering my lack of response to the posting of both a M24/47 TRZ.5 and Yugo M1924 carbine.
I must agree with you Jim.
Information / history / stories and experiences for me are such a k=large part of collecting the arms. Shooting the arm and experimenting with reloading and repairing it are just one part that prompts questions and research,
the other part for me is that I enjoy the history of the development of arms, not just the engineering but the reasons and needs for the advances. All go to explain why the arm took on that form.
So any small snippets of info and personal experiences that could be lost in time are so interesting and enriches the experience of shooting, collecting and the social kife that goes with it.
So if me question goes of the topic then that is fine by me as we will all gain.
David
I finished the rifle a year or so ago but needed to tweak the mount.
The mix.......
1. M48A made from bits and pieces.
1. New Zrak mount
1. Used Zrak 6X42N scope.
Best standard milsurp Mauser I have ever shot,
just need to make some more 8X60 rounds.
Attachment 41583Attachment 41582Attachment 41581
What exactly is 8x60 caliber?
8x57js Mauser has a max case length of 56.90 mm. Near enough 57.00 mm.
8X60s has a max case length of 60.00 mm.
8X64s has a max length 64.00 mm
So many rounds are based on the Mauser round.
6.5X57R
7X57
7X57R
7X64
8X57JRS
8mm06 starting with a 30-06. (30_06 is Mauser based)
9X57R
the list goes on and on.
There can also be shoulder diffidences as well.
Next bit from Wiki.
History
After World War I, the Allied forces signed the Treaty of Versailles. This Treaty prohibited the use of standard military weapons and ammunition by Germany. However, civilian hunters didn't want to give up on this great round, so a new cartridge was designed by the German arms manufacturer Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM). Extending the 7.92x57mm Mauser cartridge case by 3 mm (2 mm of lengthened body plus 1 mm of lengthened neck) created the 8x60mm S. The 8x60mm S bullet diameter is 8.20 mm (.323 in) as found in the 8x57mm IS.
The new cartridge used the same bullet and therefore only the chamber of the rifle had to be modified (reamed out by 2 mm plus 1 mm of neck extension) to accommodate the slightly longer case. This operation was easily performed on Gewehr 98 and Karabiner 98k rifles.
8x60mm
Since this chamber reaming operation is also possible for earlier I-bore rifles, 8x60mm chambered rifles (without the S or any other further additions) also exist. 8x60mm rifles sport the earlier tighter 8.07 mm (.318 in) I-bore as found in the 8x57mm I.
To avoid potentially serious accidents, it is important to distinguish clearly between cartridges loaded for these two different bullet diameters, and only fire them in appropriately chambered/barrelled rifles.
Cartridge dimensions
The 8x60mm S has 4.16 ml (64 grains) H2O cartridge case capacity. A sign of the era in which the 8x60mm S was developed are the gently sloped shoulders. The exterior shape of the case was designed to promote reliable case feeding and extraction in bolt-action rifles, under extreme conditions.
8 x 60 S.jpg
8x60mm S maximum C.I.P. cartridge dimensions. All sizes in millimeters (mm).
Americans would define the shoulder angle at alpha/2 ≈ 14.1 degrees. The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 240 mm (1 in 9.45 in), 4 grooves, Ø lands = 7.89 mm, Ø grooves = 8.20 mm, land width = 4.40 mm and the primer type is large rifle.
According to the official with C.I.P. (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives) guidelines the 8x60mm S case can handle up to 405 MPa (58740 psi) piezo pressure. In C.I.P. regulated countries every rifle cartridge combo has to be proofed at 125% of this maximum C.I.P. pressure to certify for sale to consumers.
Contemporary use
Mostly Mauser Gewehr 98 and Karabiner 98k rifles were rechambered for this caliber. Other rifles, not rarely based on the Mauser action, were chambered for this cartridge too.
The 8x60mm S offers compared to its parent cartridge, the 8x57mm IS, about 1 to 2% extra muzzle velocity due to its slightly larger case capacity and higher maximum operating pressure. This results in a flatter trajectory and better performance at longer range.
The popularity of the 8x60mm S peaked just after World War I and continued throughout the 1930s and 1940s. Today the cartridge is almost obsolete. No or very few rifles are produced for this round. Only two mainstream manufacturers (RWS and Prvi Partizan), along with some other smaller companies like Nolasco and Sologne, continue to produce the cartridge for hunting.
Loaded with short light bullets it can be used on small European game like roe deer and chamois. Loaded with long heavy bullets it can be used on big European game like boar, red deer, moose and brown bear. The 8x60mm S offers very good penetrating ability due to a fast twist rate that enables it to fire long, heavy bullets with a high sectional density. The 8x60mm S can be used in countries which ban civil use of former or current military ammunition. The 8x60mm S rimmed sister cartridge, the 8x60mm RS, is also not popular in central Europe for the same reasons as the 8x60mm S.
The 8x60mm S is very popular in European countries like France where the possession of rifles in their original military caliber is tightly regulated: It allows French licensed gun owners to possess rifles based on the Mauser Gewehr 98 system under the less constraining "hunting rifle" category.
The also rare 8x64mm S cartridge offers a comparable rechambering option for Mauser Gewehr 98 and Karabiner 98k rifles sporting 8 mm S-bores. Due to its larger case capacity the 8x64mm S chambering offers better ballistic performance than the 8x60mm S.
Handloaders can also produce this round, by altering a .30-06 Springfield case and using a standard 8 mm bullet. Prvi Partizan is a major supplier of brass components for European 8x60mm S Handloaders.