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Ahhhh.....
Son, if your last name rhymes with "Ledge" then you will have forgotten that many a year ago you sent me a scanned version of the heavy barrrel bedding guide from the 4th edition, which I in turn made into a word document. I gave it to Ed Horton some years later, which I think lead him on his quest to get the actual book.. I am well familar with all of Sweets books, I have every edition but the 5th.
I think I understand you now.
Ah, yes. I do remember. Have you done many rifles using the techniques in the books? The only one I experimented with (with very mixed results) was the full bedding. I don't get to do enough shooting to be able to play those games anymore. My last "accuracy creation" (fully floated barrel in an aluminium action bedding block) is still in the test firing stage after about 4 years.
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not sure what you think you understand, though...
You all may remember my request for info.to bed my Aldis scoped SMLE to "as issued" military spec. I received much good advice and as some of it was conflicting I worked out a plan of action and seem to have achieved what i think is a good result. I only use methods which will get the rifle back to standard using what was available in 1916. No epoxy or stuff. My object is to see what sort of accuracy the gun is capable of as if it was just given to a Tommy and he was told to "go and shoot some `uns". I coated the metal work with oil and dusted the wood with Johnsons Baby powder. This has the advantage of not being quite as messy as other methods and make the gun smell nice. It also showed that the metal was not touching the wood in any of the right places. I fancy the wood had shrunk a good deal. I cut out the draws and patched them with oak. I then spent many hours veneering the draws, ledges and knox form to get it all tight and touching in the right places I also got it bedding for half an inch either side of the inner band, free of the forend but touching the nosecap under the influence of the spring. I was not sure of what to do forward of the inner band but Barlow in his book "The Elements of Rifle Shooting "is insistent that a rifle must have a little downward movement at the muzzle. so that is what I did. This rifle ,with it`s offset scope is a pig to shoot.How anyone sniped anything quickly I do not know. Hesketh -Pritchard in his book"Sniping in France " says the offset scope saved many German lives,due to the difficulty of rapid aquisition of a target and I can well believe it. Anyway ,after a lot zeroing I managed to get a 5 shot group from a rest at 200 yards which measured just over 4 inches. As the "standard" for my 4(T) was only 6 inches at 200 yards I was reasonably pleased with that result. I will see if I can repeat it next time.
Son, if your last name rhymes with "Ledge" then ...
Did you happen to own a mark9 at Bankstown airport?
We appear to have our very own 'Stig'.
Not guilty! Name actually rhymes with the plural of ledge....Quote:
Originally Posted by RJW NZ
...and I found out last night that I'm not the Stig :crying: it's some bloke in England! BUGGER!:banghead:
As far as the "ledge" thing, I did not want to repeat Son's name if he did not want it known.
As far as my understanding on your comments, what you meant by "standard" bedding was not Standard SMLE bedding as we know it for the regular weight barrel.
I have done some experiments with the bedding on the heavy barrels, as well with the standard weight rifles. The tests are by no means complete enough to give a detailed report, but I have some data, with caveats on what works and what does not. In general agree with you, if you want to have a chance of getting a good shooter with the first attempt, the standard bedding A.K.A sweets 1958 “standard bedding” you mention would work; my understanding of it, with some added detail would be as follows:
1) Good draws on two rear legs
2) Well fit barrel reinforce and front lower 1/2 of receiver (receiver ring and 1/3 of way back to rear of receiver)
3) Barrel free from reinforce to around up to rear band.
4) Full contact from 3.30 to 8:30 from around the rear bad up to the front nose cap.
5) Nose cap barrel hole opened up so it does not contact barrel.
6) If there is any slight warping of the forestock, ensure the nose cap does not contact the front sight through the cut.
7) If the lift pressure on the barrel is insufficient, it can be corrected by adding some packing under the hand guard.
8) If packing is used add graphite under the barrel and between the packing and barrel.
9) The above assumes a coach wood stock, I am not sure this is the case with a walnut stock. Coach Wood seems to work better than walnut in my very brief experiments.
10) Both the nose cap spring and rear barrel band are omitted:
In Skennerton's match handbook he mentions that using a brass middle band suitable sized and a cut down front nose cap plunger spring you can use the nose cap with out modification and still get good results. That bedding he mentions does not use packing to control the barrel flex, just the two nubs on the nose cap and the weakened nose cap plunger spring. That bedding discussed in his hand book is very close to the bedding of the standard SMLE and what was what I though you were originally referring to.
I have had some success on the semi floaters, as long as there is some damping, A.K.A. the “Holden hose” method. I found in my test that for the Holden “floater or semi floater” method to work the front nose cap should be pretty much glued to the forestock, or at least bedded with epoxy so there is not shifting in recoil. I say semi floater, as I got very erratic results when I played with some stock contact at the front under the nose (built up, or with some contact back around the middle band area. The results are inconclusive and I have to go back and redo those tests again. But I am pretty sure if you do a classic floater that you need the Holden type rubber hose mount at the nose cap and the nose cape must be expertly fit to the forend. My floater was built on a MLE 1894 action built up as SMLE, so I do not know if that would affect the results.
I did try bedding a barrel to a cut down SMLE forend on a rifle as a floater and a semi floater. The forend was cut off at the inner band location, just behind where the outer rear band would go. That arrangement, when with a very well draws and barrel reinforce would not group well at all. I added a pad /wooden plug at the site of the inner band and played with various upward forces on the barrel at this point. It still would not group well. Not sure why as the range rifles I have that have a similar bedding arrangement see to do quite well. It seems that the lower band on the range rifles does something.
On the rifle I have that has the oldest and most worn barrel, the nose cap has the nubs and it is bedded as a standard SMLE, less the plunger and the middle inner band. There is some slight build up of the barrel channel both ahead of and behind the opening for the inner band, which in unison with the last few inches of the barrel channel before the muzzle cap provide a slight resistance when the nose cap is pushed onto the barrel. I could not estimate the force but it is very slight. This rifle has a walnut stock, if built on a 1916 BSA action and is very accurate at short range (consistently less that 2.25 MOA with good cordite loads, ten shot strings), as long as the wood is behaving. The walnut has a slight warp which comes out when it is very hot. Then the groupings are not so good. By warping I mean the stock does go up and down, bur sort of rotates and you can literally see the nose cap rotate relative to the barrel. This occurs when it get really hot and/or is dried out. That problems seemed to depart when I soaked the wood in linseed oil as per Peter Laidler’s comments (actually got he idea from Ed Horton)
I suspect as far as actions go, that the MKIII actions are preferred. All three of my heavy barrels, plus one I tried to purchase but had to back out off because of a warped action had MK III with the cut on the right hand side for the cut-off. I do not know what that is, but that seems to be constant on all of the original HB rifles I have seen. The actions are a BSA 1916, a Lithgow 1916 and Lithgow 1940.
The caveats:
A) All my testing has been done with exactly three heavy barrel SMLE rifles and three MLE range rifles (which do not have nose caps). As the barrels have had various states of wear, from a brand new barrel bought from Lawrence ordnance, to one 1938 barrel that has seen better days but shoots well at short range.
B) Some of the barrels prefer Cordite to nitro powders, and getting reliable, accurate, consistently igniting cordite rounds is a pain. Attempts to remanufacture these rounds by taking old cordite and putting them in boxer cases has been difficult, I think I have figured it out but will not know until I do more tests (cordite is hard to light, I seem to need the hottest primer I can get). On the new barrels I have not put any cordite through them; as such I might be comparing apples and oranges.
C) All my testing has been done at 100 yards. That is not really that reliable of a test, especially if you really care about how the bedding effects the rifles compensation. Mostly in the prone slung up position, though when I am using a chrono I do shoot from the bench. I can get some idea of the compensation when using the chrono and comparing that to where the shots end up n the paper, but my chrono seems to miss about 3 shots out of 20 making it an exercise in frustration. I would like to eventually shoot these rifles in competition, but here in PA during the competitive season I have few enough chances to fire over the full course and so I have not, preferring to shoot my regular service rifle (AR15) in these events. As I am ending the period when I can be competitive with the service rifle and detest match rifles, I suppose I might start to shoot vintage SR(B) rifles in these matches.
D) Until I do some real matches at long range and really get the rifles to perform under realistic conditions that I really cannot say with any sense of reliability that my concussions are valid. I am still just a student of the rifles, which is why I was so interested in your comments.
I actually built a heavy barreled SMLE from scratch with a new barrel in the wrap from OZ and brand new receiver I found in teh back of a gunstore. I built it up with stuff from ebay and Sprigfiled sporters and fultons and AJparker and sons until I have a brand new rifle. I took it out to shoot it and because I didn't knwo enough about teh bedding (before I doscivered this or the old britishguns.net) I eventually gave up on it and sold the whole kit. Best I got from it was about 4 inch groups at 100. Now I'd know what to do and Im very annoyed with myself for selling it.
Frederick, I think the first thing you really need to do is standardise your ammunition. I'm talking about handloading, using the same make of cases that have had the same useage, same primers, individually weighed loads and the same projectiles. The old target shooters here, while being issued military ammo for each competition, would even sort them for a thou or two difference in rim thickness (being about the only control they had over the ammunition used).
You make no mention of the front trigger guard screw collar. What length are you adjusting it to?
Bedding a foreend has to start at the back. They need to have about 80% contact with the front face of the butt socket (making sure the barrel goes straight down the centre of the channel as you go). Then you need contact around the magazine well from the receiver ring back at least 3/4 of the way around each side, but must be even each side. 4.30 to 7.30 (at least) bedded around the receiver ring and at least five to seven o'clock at the barrel knox. Thing here is, as you remove wood to set the receiver down at the front, you change the angle and the contact at the butt socket and along the sides of the mag well. Fix them again, and then re-check the front of the receiver. Do whatever you do at the mid point (inner band recess) I still prefer an inch either side from 4.30 to 730. From here the semi floater, rubber nose or standard bedding completes this part of the job. The last thing you do is tighten the draws. In the case of a coachwood foreend, take out the copper recoil blocks for the entire bedding process. Once the rest is done, fit one pad (with shims?) so it is very firm to remove the foreend (pulling down from the back only) and ensuring it has contact on the sear lug down it's entire length. Take it out and repeat for the other side, getting the same tension. Fit both sets of copper blocks (and shims) and then check to make sure the barrel is still perfectly aligned down the foreend. If it isn't, then your shimming is wrong. Now you need to measure for the front trigger guard screw collar. Fit the trigger guard and rear screw. Install the front screw and just nip it up until you feel resistance on the screwdriver. Measure the gap between the top of the trigger guard and the bottom of the screw socket under the receiver ring. Trim the collar in a lathe to be .020" shorter. Fit the collar and tighten the screw.( No need for gorilla tight- the wood will be crushed down that .020" easily and then you are trying to squash the steel collar.) If you have fully bedded the front of the barrel (bedded 4.30 to 7.30 for at least the last four inches to the front sight block, then now. before fitting the handguards, outer band and nosecap, you check that it takes between four and seven pounds of lift to get the barrel off the wood at the muzzle end. Fit the nosecap so it makes no contact with the barrel (unless rubbernose) and then fit the front handguard either shaped or packed so it has crush on the barrel to correspond with the foreend bedding at the front, and also pack either side of the inner band recess so the outer band requires effort to close.
I don't think I missed too much... Now here's the kicker... You can do all the above perfectly and some rifles will still not shoot- there is no explanation, but it was a well known fact among the rifle accurisers. Also they could lose their accuracy for no apparent reason (climate?). When Mr Horton refers to it as "the black art" he isn't kidding. Chanting and dancing around a fire at the full moon might even improve the chances of success.
Another option is to permanantly glue the action into the foreend as the "benchies" do. If you are using modern epoxies anyway.... (blasphemy)
Then there's the fully floated option... initial testing only, this shoots moa...