No. 4 Mk 1 (T) bolt mismatch - how much does it hurt value?

I would agree with Paul. In fact the only 4T's I've noted where you get a perfect colour match (usually) between the cheekpiece, fore end, guards, & butt, is on Canadian T's, as all of the wood is invariably American black walnut, including the 'piece. In the UK, whilst most rifles were set up in walnut the wood was not generally used for cheekpieces, which are most commonly beech & less commonly ash & stained birch. Consequently, there will generally be at least a slight variation in colour, & sometimes a quite noticeable variation.

I also thought the bolt handle has been lengthened & fitted with an over size bolt knob. Ironically, it looks to have been quite nicely done. Shame, but not the end of the world, particularly if reflected in the price. The original bolt handle knob would have had a hole counter bored in it, typical of BSA throughout their No4 production history.

Added later: I forgot to mention earlier but if the rifle body lacks the side wall 'T' it may well be a 'scopeless T' as bigwagon suggests.

In the real world of Armourers, fitting new or second-hand/used bolts, woodwork and other odds and ends was an everyday occurrence. If the bolt wasn't mated exactly to the rifle, we'd work our magic until it was, then carry out all of the usual associated tests, CHS, squareness etc etc, lift and so on. Then range test it for accuracy when it was assembled and then re-number the bolt to match the rifle. Done hundreds of 'em......, week in and week out. Sadly, when we were using and repairing them the words safe queens or investments didn't come into it. And concourse was reserved for fancy cars.

Sorry, but that just how it was..........., just another killing machine.

I was able to make a closer inspection of this rifle today and get better photos. I think the rifle may be a late-war converted scopeless No. 4 (T) based on the lack of "T" mark on the receiver or a scope number on the wrist. The No. 32 Mk III scope and bracket match the numbers on the scope can, but not the rifle, and there are no serial number markings on the transit case. As previously noted the bolt is altered and mis-matched. Overall it's a very nice package, but my guess is possibly pieced together. Other than the bolt issue, the rifle is in beautiful condition and the package is very tempting.

Here's an album of more detailed shots.

Imgur: The magic of the Internet

There is not nearly enough information to form a proper conclusion.

A mismatched bolt on a Lee-Enfield is a VERY SERIOUS problem form a collector's point of view and would break most possible sales deals, both now and in the future. The chance of finding the original bolt is EXTREMELY slim. Milsurps.com has a thread set up by ~Angel~'s "Match Making" Service for "rifles looking for bolts." https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=1035 A mismatched Lee-Enfield bolt will ALWAYS hurt a deal. If selling the rifle to a re-enactor or shooter, it might not matter as much, but even they would not want to pay a top dollar.

The lack of a scope serial number on the butt just below the cocking piece, tells me that this is ALMOST CERTAINLY a No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) which was NOT a sniper rifle as it was an unfinished conversion in that it never had a telescope and bracket fitted in service. Such a rifle would usually have "TR", "S" and "S51" markings. If that is the case there should be no "T" on the left side, no scope number on the butt (as noted) and the rifle serial number on the bracket would be for a different rifle.

We do not know all the reasons why there were so many No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles made. Many of these were early Stevens-Savage production and some were late-war BSA Shirley production. The late-war examples are understandable, for the contract ended on a specific date, so regardless of how many rifles were partway through the conversion process, it was a case of "down tools" at the appointed hour. (Info from Peter Laidler as I recall).

I disagree, most respectfully, with "breakeyp" in that I have never seen any indication that the cheek rests were only fitted after issue to snipers. The one exception is that the very first No. 4 Mk. I (T) rifles were reportedly issued without cheek rests, but these were fitted as soon as they became available.

For American Garand collectors, they can identify with this unfinished sniper conversion situation by thinking of the "SA-52" marked M1 rifles. Drilled for the M1C scope base, 4,796 unfinished M1C receivers had the special scope mount holes plugged and the rifles were issued in the Korean War as standard M1 rifles, marked SA-52. As a result, they are not and were not, technically snipers as the conversion was never completed. [Ref: The M1 Garand Rifle - Bruce N. Canfield p. 526]

I concur. As a buyer and collector, a bolt mismatch on a (T) gives me serious pause. SERIOUS pause. It would have to be a really good bargain, as you'd never get market price for it. Always discounted.

Yes, worth rather less than a matching bolt rig to a collector, but I always let the price make the ultimate decision for me. The scope & bracket alone (assuming they are in good functional & cosmetic condition) are worth somewhere between two & two & a half thousand pounds on the UK market. I suppose it depends on if you want a one-off purchase as the example of a 4T for your collection, or whether you want to shoot it, re-enact, or (heaven forbid), move it on again & earn something out of it. I'd have no qualms about splitting it up to sell on, as it's a non-matching set. A correct pattern bolt body could be fitted as a replacement - it'll never be 'factory original', but a much better prospect than what's in the rifle at the moment.

I agree on the bolt mismatch being a serious hit to value and desirability, as well as it likely being a "T less scope" in the first place. But the accessories are of great interest to me for my early Savage No. 4 (T). I think I can get the package for about $3500-3800, at which point I probably would replace bolt, sell the rifle, and keep the scope and transit case for my other rifle. The scope has clear glass and appears in overall good condition, but the elevation and windage knobs are very stiff so it probably needs some attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seaforth72

The lack of a scope serial number on the butt just below the cocking piece, tells me that this is ALMOST CERTAINLY a No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) which was NOT a sniper rifle as it was an unfinished conversion in that it never had a telescope and bracket fitted in service.

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Just another thought.

My No4T has been vetted and 'authenticated' by Peter Laidler and it does not have the Scope serial number on the Butt - apparently this was common with RAF No4Ts, the butts were replaced by the armourers to 'fit' the Sniper to whom the rifle was issued.

Mine is a fully authenticated RAF No4T and has all of the relevant markings used by the RAF armourers.


Example :


34 BWC 8-68


Means it was "overhauled at 34th base Workshops at Catterick August 1968"

Probably what happened was the fellow who made up the oversized bolt knob, or had it made up, was wise enough to set the original bolt aside and modify another.

How well he or his gunsmith got the lugs to bear on each other is anyone's guess, but quite possibly nothing was done. Lapping them in would have also changed the recoil shoulders in the receiver/body and if the owner was wise enough, he may not have wanted to do that.

So, the original bolt is probably out there somewhere, perhaps even still in his basement or garage: if the owner passed on and his family got rid of his guns, they may or may not have dealt with the bits and pieces yet.

You need to find out who the owner was and talk to him, or his family ASAP.

Stop press: just had another look at the photos and this might well be the original bolt judging by the taper put on the handle, which could be enough to completely erase the original numbers.

Have a good look at the wear patterns on the bolt and check the bearing of the lugs with layout blue. Should be possible to tell if this is the original from that.

Regardless if it is original, if it is a good fit with proper contact on the lugs, you might as well get an appropriate bolt and use the handle and knob to restore this one. There should be enough "meat" left to splice the two together as far away from the bolt body as possible.

Obviously, to someone like me and the hundreds of other real Armourers who have fitted hundreds of new or part used/worn bolts to hundreds of rifles it's a bit of a kick in the crutch to know that a new bolt makes a rifle worth less. Being a big grown up lad who's been there, been round the block and done it a few times it's not that I care tooooo much. But surely if it's properly done, gauged and all the tests done and then range tested, out inspected by the ogre of an out inspector then, surely, what's the problem? Am I less skilled that the fitter at Maltby or BSA? Not as skilled or experienced as the.......... Anyway...........