That's what I was getting at. Capacity within Nazi-occupied Europe for producing .303 ammo existed, but was any ever made? I've certainly neither heard of nor seen any.
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That's what I was getting at. Capacity within Nazi-occupied Europe for producing .303 ammo existed, but was any ever made? I've certainly neither heard of nor seen any.
I highly doubt this. As previously mentioned the Germany mainly bothered on the rifles that were in the identical 8x57 caliber as their own rifle (or pistols, where they anyway had a few more calibers in usage). The rifles not in 8x57 caliber were mainly put into storage. This storage was handed out in the last days to the Volkssturm - pictures proof the poor old and kids to carry many different weapons, including commercial hunting rifles (even shotguns).
The only difference to that is the usage of Soviet rifles on the Eastern front. But this was nothing officially done but rather the persons at the front used captured enemy material with the ammo they also got. Plus these also didn't got marked in any way.
He certainly lists, about half a dozen French ammo factories that made 303 ammo from WW1 until the late 30's, and they don't appear to have been making 7.92x57 ammo after a quick cross check with the known 7.92x57 ammo factories.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Payne
Labbett also list a pre-war Norwegian 303 ammo factory, which again would have come under German control, which also doesn't appear on the 7.92 list, and Spain which was making 303 ammo during the civil war, which could have been a poss source as well.
Labbett lists DWM – Deutsche Waffen Und Munitionsfabrik, Karlsruhe as a 303 ammo maker as well.
So, there's certainly possible Wehrmacht 303 ammo sources.
I agree, numerous possible sources, but has anyone ever seen anything? I think Promo is probably right in that, being a non-standard calibre, Enfields would have gone to rear echelon troops, or even into storage, & so would have been little fired, with captured ammunition stocks deemed sufficient, maybe?? I would imagine a lot of SAA would have been left behind on the beaches at & around Dunkirk.
I think the question though, should be were any of those factories producing 303 during the war, or did they change over the production lines to other calibers? A machine making 303 could be easily switched to running other rifle cartridges. Were the occupied factories engaged in production of ammunition for 7.5mm or 8mm French weapons? Or ammunition for the Italians? Were the machines shipped to Germany to be run in a more loyal factory? My understanding is that the number of serviceable .303 rifles captured was very low, as many had been disabled by the expedient of breaking the striker and loosing the bolt head. Would the handful remaining have been worth making ammunition for in excess of what was captured?
Ammo? Pick up the phone and place an order.
The FN plant in Belgium was tooled up to make LOTS of .303 ammo, much of it either for export or their own Lewis, etc guns.
The Italians also used the same round in a couple of their own MGs as well and made quite a lot of ammo for themselves and (pre-war) for export.
Not being used as front-line arms, captured .303 rifles (and MGs) would have initially been issued to second-line garrison troops or reasonably reliable auxiliaries or "allies".
They picked up few "Bren" Carriers during the Dunkirk Handicap. Enough to type-catalogue them and impress them into service as SP mounts for light anti-tank guns or, later, on the Russian Front, as remotely-controlled demolition vehicles .
In the African Desert, The Australians and Kiwis ran the "Bush Artillery", pretty much completely equipped with captured Italian guns and ammo.
The German Ordnance system must have been really "interesting" by 1943, Ditto the Japanese, who had few qualms about redistributing captured equipment and using it until it broke or ran out of ammo, fuel, etc. The Japanese Navy and their "Marines" were big users of their exact equivalent of the .303.
During the previous Great Unpleasantness, the Turks took possession of a LOT of British and French materiel. Their 7.92 x 57 conversions of SMLEs are a case in point: Use them for training with original captured ammo, then, as that dried up, totally rebuild them to use "standard" ammo..
The same could be said of the British as well, in reverse, as although we were making our own 7.92x57 ammo for our BESA MG's, use of captured German ammo stocks was actually encouraged to supplement the small quantities of UK made 7.92 ammo supply, given the demand for 303 ammo for almost everything else.
It would be interesting to see any example of FN made 303 ammo with a 1941-1944 date stamp, which would likely be evidence they were making it for zee Germans.
I used to be a keen collector of both 303 & 7.9mm ammo in my teens & twenties & I never heard of let alone saw any 303 cases/rounds with head stamps suggestive of production under Third Reich control. I know they had the capability to do it, as Bruce & others have pointed out.......but DID they? Does anyone have a 303 round head stamped ch 42, aux 43 or similar, or even rounds with civvy head stamps in a wrapper or box suggesting they were produced in a factory in Germany or under German occupation? They could exist but I've never seen any evidence of it up to now. In fact it would be fascinating to be shown one.
I can imagine it being worth there while to produce .303, if you have the rifles with ammo issue the a unit not expected to fire much, ok. However uk hardly want to complicate your supply line for something as cheap as bolt action rifle long term surely. Hence the point above about them going into store and being issued out to last ditch forces
There is a film of a German battalion in WWI marching down a sunken road and all carrying SMLE's at the shoulder.