Britain In 1940 (Evacuation at Dunkirk)

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

But you are assuming that Hitler would have wanted nothing in return for a peace deal with Britain, after Dunkirk, in 1940. I do not believe that this would have been the case. Whatever sort of deal may have emerge after negotiations with Hitler in 1940, I believe that it would have been a very one sided deal stacked very much in Germany's favour, leaving Britain severely weakened and very venerable.

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We wouldn't have got to keep the entire Royal Navy because it was too much of a threat to Germany. There are several ways that any peace deal with Hitler could of addressed the matter.

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Evening F10, your assertion regarding German demands for a ceasefire and terms depends on your point of reference, in May 1940, in the direct aftermath of Operation Dynamo or in September 1940 or early 1941, when the Germans had in effect been decisively defeated in the Air.

So May, when Britain was at a low ebb and voices to negotiate for peace were vocal in some quarters, or September when military strength was rapidly increasing along with substantial and growing input and help from our Commonwealth friends.

Yeah I really could not see the Admiralty surrendering the fleet tipping the balance of power in favour of the German Navy.
Even so I do not really think for one second that surrender was ever on the table discuss it they may have but I think bowing to a tyrant was not on the cards, Hitler never had the number of capital ships to blockade England and Raeder would not give Donitz his 300 U-Boats to accomplish it.
As Churchill said the only thing that really frightened him throughout the whole war was the U-boat peril, once they had developed radar, cracked enigma along with Walker's system of the creeping depth charge barrage also with long range aircraft closing the Atlantic black spot the U-boats were doomed.
After the U-boats 2 happy times, U-boats were sunk in ever increasing numbers as the replacement crews did not have the experience of say Lent, Shepke, Prein and other aces in the scheme of things the allied forces defeated Germany and the horror of their reign was laid bare for all the world to see.
There is a book called "Above U" I have which is a classification above Ultra that details convoys knowingly being sent into the area of U-boats as if they suddenly were not to be found then the Germans would have rightly guessed the Enigma was compromised.
So they sacrificed some convoys for the greater good to keep the enemy in the dark about their codes being deciphered.
As it was Donitz fathomed enigma was compromised and had the naval enigma receive a fourth rotor which again put a spanner in the works which was overcome that was the second happy time.

I bless all that went into that hell and all the others that followed that conflict up to the present day and future.

Well said Ron, as a snap shot, I had one Uncle ( DFC Bar) who was a flight engineer, he did two tours with Bomber Command, 52 Squadron Halifax and 460 RAAF on Lancaster's, the horror and stress took a toll on him personally that lasted his whole life.

Another Uncle fought in infantry right through the War, from France in 1940 all the way through to Germany in 1945.

Two Aunties both in the ATA, a grandfather who fought in WW1 with the Canadian 28th Infantry Division, getting gassed in 1917 and was an Air Aid Warden in Liverpool in the 1941 Blitz. Getting an award for straddling an parachute mine and preventing it going off on a wrecked building....


The rest worked in the War industry in one capacity or another.

All long gone now obviously and hugely proud of all their efforts and sacrifices.

Surrender or compromise was never an option when the entire population mobilised!

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

Canadian 28th Infantry Division

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I'm thinking you mean the 28th Bn CEF? The Encyclopedia of Saskatchewan | Details

You're quite right Jim....

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

But you are assuming that Hitler would have wanted nothing in return for a peace deal with Britain, after Dunkirk, in 1940. I do not believe that this would have been the case. Whatever sort of deal may have emerge after negotiations with Hitler in 1940, I believe that it would have been a very one sided deal stacked very much in Germany's favour, leaving Britain severely weakened and very venerable.

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 PM ----------



We wouldn't have got to keep the entire Royal Navy because it was too much of a threat to Germany. There are several ways that any peace deal with Hitler could of addressed the matter.

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It seems to be pretty clear from his statements that Hitler, and some of the Nazi leadership wanted a modus vivendi with Britain. Hitler at least stated that he would give up all overseas ambitions and guarantee the security of the British Empire in exchange for a free hand on the Continent.

This would seem to have been greatly to Britain's advantage, but as must have been realized at the time, if only by Churchill and some others, Hitler would not live forever, and his wishes even if they remained constant, would not survive him.

If peace was made in 1940 or 41, Lend Lease would never have occurred and the Soviets would have missed it more than Britain ever did. In fact given a true free hand, it seems almost certain Germany would have defeated the USSR even with Hitler's interference and mistakes. Hitler rushed into war, when he generals and admirals were expecting to be ready by 1944/45, not 1939. If Germany had begun with 150 U boats instead of 45, the war would have been lost almost certainly.

Having defeated the USSR, the imperatives of Nazi philosophy alone to say nothing of the national psychology it sprang from, would have inevitably led to ever-increasing pressure and ultimately a renewed war with Britain. The temptation after constant victory would be irrresistable. But who would be more ready in 1943, 44 when Hitler returned in triumph from the East?

Isolationism would have resurged in the USA, with Lend Lease probably a dead letter, where were the resources to prepare for war with a Germany that had the whole resources of Europe, human and material at her disposal?

No, there was no other option but to fight on and hope for the best; the public mind and mood alone would not have permitted any other course of action.

Certainly, it could do no harm to encourage Hitler to think that should he crush the USSR, the question might be re-opened, and I suspect some trouble was taken to encourage him in that belief. Not the sort of thing that ends up in the PRO however!;)

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

, your assertion regarding German demands

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My assertion is that had we entered into negotiations with Germany, following the Dunkirk evacuation in 1940, Hitler would have wanted something in return for any peace deal offered and the result would have been to put us in an even more vulnerable position. I have not, in any way, said that we should have entered into peace negotiations with Germany in 1940.

It is not the job of the Admiralty to decide how large or small the Royal Navy is, as this is decided by central government. It was in WW2 and still is today.

I think trusting a Tyrant would never have been entered into, how long would have Hitler honoured the peace deal a question that really hovers on his breaking of said deals with other parties.
Surpmil is correct in his assertions that the only really course of action was to lick the wounds & fight on as best they could.