Errata Sheet For David Gordon WWII Tommy Weapons, Equipment, Uniforms Books?

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Originally Posted by tj214

I see in Gordon's first edition (2005) of Uniforms of the WW II Tommy that First Pattern Dennisons had knitted cuffs vice Second Pattern did not.

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Which brings us to two more unofficial modifications to the Denison smocks. The 1st pattern smock lacked the additional snaps to secure the tail-piece when not in use and led to many removing it completely to avoid having it dangle down in the rear. The knitted cuffs in the 1st pattern were appreciated for being windproof and led to short lengths of hose tops (socks) being sewn to the end of the arms on the 2nd pattern by some. As for David's "match grade" ammunition comment I'm not sure if he is referring to a specific match grade manufactured ammunition or simply referring to ammunition that is known for its accuracy.

As an amusing aside and speaking from personal experience, there is a large British Airborne reenacting community in Texas which prefers the 2nd pattern smock as it is cooler to wear when running around the countryside playing silly bugger in the Texas heat. When I used to reenact I'd go 'commando' under my 1st pattern smock and wool trousers lest I suffer from heat stroke. Now there's a 'modification' the Sergeant Major would frown on!

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Originally Posted by Sapper740

Which brings us to two more unofficial modifications to the Denison smocks. The 1st pattern smock lacked the additional snaps to secure the tail-piece when not in use and led to many removing it completely to avoid having it dangle down in the rear. The knitted cuffs in the 1st pattern were appreciated for being windproof and led to short lengths of hose tops (socks) being sewn to the end of the arms on the 2nd pattern by some. As for David's "match grade" ammunition comment I'm not sure if he is referring to a specific match grade manufactured ammunition or simply referring to ammunition that is known for its accuracy.

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The knitted cuffs and the 'tail' isn't the only difference, as 1st Patt was longer in length and baggier in cut compared to the 2nd Patt. It was also slightly different in camo pattern and colours, The were was more base tan in the 1st Patt, and supposedly the original early production was hand-painted as opposed to the revised 1st Patt being screen printed as greater production needed, but I'm not sure if that's even been proved one way or another, and might well remain one of those unverified myths, but there seems to be a 'transitional' period when some of the later features of the 2nd Patt appeared in very late 1st Patt smocks.
The 2nd Patt began to be issued in early '44, so most new airborne soldiers trained for ETO (and not served in Italy etc) had the 2nd Patt, as would have almost all snipers trained for the Overlord and ETO ops.
The cut was different on the 2nd Patt, not just the sleeves, as was the base colours and camo colours, being a bit darker, which was more suited to NW Europe ops, with 1st Patt better suited to Med where it originally saw most service. The half zip was brass as well on 2nd Patt (steel on 1st Patt)

In terms of unit mods to the Denison, I've heard but never seen one, that the ones issued to the Royal Marines were all unit modded by removing the half zip, which was replaced by buttons and loops (maybe toggles and loops from the navy issue duffel coat?)

Just an off beat Q ? with regards to the "Match" grade ammunition used could they be referring to the MkVIIIz MG ammo as this had the boat tail projectile AFAIK which was designed for the extra long range fire.
I read apparently it was loaded a bit hotter than the MkVIIz ball but well within the 303 rifles pressure limits.

I've heard it suggested some snipers preferred to use .303 "civilian" hunting ammo since it was deemed more accurate than any issue ammunition. Anybody ever heard of 'tween wars .303 civilian hunting ammo, as opposed to surplus issue ammunition used for civilian hunting?

Without detracting in any way from the Gordon books on equipment, he has unwittingly fallen into the one of the dilemmas of all authors, including myself, of just WHEN to publish.

The problem is that the moment you publish your book, the first person who buys and reads it immediately knows more than you, the author knows! That's because he knows all that YOU have written PLUS the tiny bit he knew earlier..

And I am as bad as the next man in this respect. As soon as I saw the 1st Bren Gun saga book, then the second, i said to myself words to the effect '.......why the xxxx didn't he ask me from an in-depth professional users point of view.....'. They were my (and all Armourers) bread and butter for 40 or so years. Sorry Blake and god bless you

Regarding the ammo used by the snipers (above). I can tell you that he got the ammunition he was issued with. If the ammo storeman listened, he would put the rest of the container aside, marked as 'for issue to the snipers' The snipers would go onto the ranges, accurately zero-in, knowing that the next lot, from the same batch would perform the same. The same applied to green-spot.

Dennison smocks. The knitted cuffs were the Achilles heel and always wearing out on the inside, through fair war and tear. They were easily repaired in the first instance by the user, darning the holes - as they were taught to do with their woolen socks up until the 70's or so. Yep, been there and done it. The second option was for the Regimental tailor to sew in NEW cuffs, made from the top of knitted socks......., in either dark grey or latterly, khaki. That's why the crunchies were issued with a roll of sewing and darning kit.needles and other odds and sods, called a 'housewife'

The best top, without doubt, was the camouflaged SMOCKS, windproof or later the uncamouflaged baggy windproof

Point taken about using issue ammo. If a sniper wanted to use "civilian hunting ammo" it would have been on his own dime to purchase...if such ammo existed in the first place. Was there such a thing as interwar "civilian hunting ammunition" that was not repurposed military issue ammo?

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Originally Posted by CINDERS

Just an off beat Q ? with regards to the "Match" grade ammunition used could they be referring to the MkVIIIz MG ammo as this had the boat tail projectile AFAIK which was designed for the extra long range fire.
I read apparently it was loaded a bit hotter than the MkVIIz ball but well within the 303 rifles pressure limits.

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I would doubt it. The commercial PPU and S&B 303 ammo currently on the market is effectively a reproduction of the Mk.VIIIz MG ammo, as that is what both firms made post war, and both are crap in terms of accuracy in my 4T compared to real surplus Mk.VIIz ammo which is pretty much perfect, which is why its such a shame that its all gone, and no wants to make it.

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Originally Posted by tj214

Point taken about using issue ammo. If a sniper wanted to use "civilian hunting ammo" it would have been on his own dime to purchase...if such ammo existed in the first place.

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More so when you consider if such ammo existed, it would not have been easy to get hold of in pre-war UK, let alone during wartime restrictions, so I think such an idea can be discounted.

I wonder where the sniper would have obtained 'match grade' ammunition or hunting cartridges while in combat.

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Originally Posted by Peter Laidler

Regarding the ammo used by the snipers (above). I can tell you that he got the ammunition he was issued with. If the ammo storeman listened, he would put the rest of the container aside, marked as 'for issue to the snipers' The snipers would go onto the ranges, accurately zero-in, knowing that the next lot, from the same batch would perform the same. The same applied to green-spot.

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I wonder if David was referring to the special match ammunition made by Dominion Arsenals in Canada for sale to the DCRA? DAC made a match grade ammunition with a turquoise band ostensibly for civilian shooting competitions starting in 1939? but any military sniper familiar with use of that ammunition might have requested it, or is that a stretch too far? I also remember Kynoch making a match grade .303 British cartridge in the inter-war years.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

I wonder where the sniper would have obtained 'match grade' ammunition or hunting cartridges while in combat.

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Both Canada's Dominion Arsenal and Kynoch made match grade .303 British ammunition. DA starting in 1939 if memory serves me right and Kynoch a couple of years earlier so it's not in the realm of impossibility for a sniper to have had "Match Grade" ammunition during the war.