Cartridges

8x50R Siamese Mauser
8x50R Austrian Mannlicher

Mr Kemp is correct

Also used in converted Lee Enfield rifles in India when there was a ban on military calibers (1907)

Also seen photos of French Lebel rifles in 8x50r Mannlicher

My 6.5×58mm Vergueiro and packet.
H/S Kynoch 6.5mm M. (M- denoting Mauser)

This a centerfire rimless cartridge designed in 1904 - 1939, specifically for the Mauser-Vergueiro, chosen as service rifle of the Portuguese Army. It was adopted to replace the rimmed 8×60mmR Guedes and 8×56mmR Kropatschek Corto cartridges originally filled with blackpowder, which had been used with Kropatschek rifles procured in the mid-1880s. Smokeless powder allowed for a higher velocity round and further calibre reduction to 6.5 mm, a step already taken by other European countries, e.g. Sweden (6.5×55mm Swedish) and Italy (6.5×52mm Carcano).

It remained the service rifle cartridge until the Karabiner 98k replaced the Mauser-Vergueiro pattern in 1939. The round was also used for sporting purposes, manufacturers like DWM and Kynoch offered it until the 1960s.

In military use the common projectile weighs 155 grains and travels at up to 2,400 feet per second. A lot of the Mauser-Vergueiro rifles were later rechambered to accept the standard 7.92×57mm cartridge of the newer Mauser 98k pattern.

303 MkVII for scale.

The Vergueiro wasn't really a Mauser, entirely Portuguese designed by Vergueiro and only manufactured by Mauser. Commonly known in South Africa as the Portuguese Mauser or pencil Mauser [due to the long slim cartridge]. Portugal 'lent' several thousand of these rifles to the Union of South Africa in WWI.

Seems to be a lively shooting community in Portugal for the Vergueuiro in 6,5 and 7,92 calibres. Nice long slim rifle. Carrtidges seem to be unobtainium.

The chap I brought these off some years ago said they were a pretty rare type of cartridge.
I like the 6.5's as they have predominantly long projectiles my 6.5 x 284 shoots very well with the Berger 140gn VLD's but almost to the same poi it also shows a preference for the Nosler 140gn RDF's with the Hornady 140gn ELD-M and 143gn ELD-X almost as good all are long projectiles. I've got some Hornady 147gn ELD-M but have yet to do any load development with them.

Continuing with the 6.5mm type.

H/S PS - Pirotecnia Militar de Sevilla, Sevilla, Spain I think this might be the maker but it might have been made in Italy the primer has like an anchor with a 3 imposed on it.

The 6.5×54mm Mannlicher–Schönauer also known as 6.5×54 Mannlicher–Schönauer Greek or simply 6.5 Greek is a 6.5 mm (.264" cal.) rimless rifle cartridge used in the Mannlicher–Schönauer rifle. It is the direct descendant of the 6.5×53mmR rimmed cartridge from the 1891 Mannlicher rifle, designed to function smoothly through the Schönauer's rotary magazine. 6.5 mm bullets are typically known for their high ballistic coefficients and sectional density, which gives them great stability in flight, resistance to wind deflection, and high penetrating power. It, along with the Mannlicher–Schönauer rifle, was first introduced in Paris at the 1900 World's Fair.

303 MkVII for scale.

When SAKO bolt action rifles and SKS rifles first appeared on the market chambering the 7,62x39 cartridge, this
caliber was not available to the public. Reloaders had to form the 7,39 Soviet cartridge from 6,5 M-S or 6,5 Carcano.
(I have a few 6,5 M-S formed into 7,39. sometimes you had to turn the base just a little depending on the make of
brass).

Cinders, Enjoyed your post about hunting and shooting the 444 Marlin. I had an old friend who was the local Postmaster who bought a Marlin 444. He did not reload so I offered to reload his 444 if he bought the RCBS loading dies. Had some problems at first with the case neck collapse while seating the bullet and new primers that would drop out after seated. Finally got some better brass and worked out the problems. The Postmaster shot some nice large deer in the upper part of Michigan with his 444 Marlin, most with a single shot. He wanted to hunt in Canada and thought about Alaska.

By chance he found a small collection of Winchester Model 71's both a rifle and the rare carbine and another Model 71 in the 450 Alaskan caliber, he bought all three. The 450 Alaskan was his ticket to Canada and Alaska. His 450 was built by George Pearsall of Chicago, a well known custom gunsmith in the 1940's and 50's. New checkered wood, peep sight mounted on the receiver side. It came with custom RCBS loading/forum dies too. The best load was a 350 gr half jacket at over 2500 fps. I fired the cases with 400 gr lead bullets to forum the neck. Really a nice rifle and I liked it better than the 444 Marlin. I lost contact with the Postmaster but know he took it to Canada

The photo shows a factory 348 Winchester and 450 Alaskan, COTW used my photo of the 450 with lead bullet for yearsAttachment 128233

Pics! looks like all the pics from this thread have gone in to web space!

444 Marlin.
Yes the secret to stopping the neck collapse on the 444 was having a good inside neck chamfer, the 336 Marlin was a light rifle and with the full power loads I was only getting 3 reloads per case using 4227 in R.P cases it seemed when firing the rifle it had no cast off coming straight back into your shoulder.
I remember once we were cutting down @16" saplings with it when a know it all chap kept badgering me to shoot it (*every group has one!!!) in the end I gave in more to shut him up than anything.
So I loaded a single into the chamber and told him to close the action when he had it to his shoulder as I was taking no chances with him, he expounded how he had shot plenty of hard kicking rifles and knew what he was doing with it.
So when he mounted the rifle to his shoulder I warned him his eye relief was not sufficient to which I got a rebuke that he knew all about such things so I shut up and moved close behind him incase of him dropping my rifle well he let drive at the tree unknown if he hit it as I was watching what was happening.
Anyway the result was one of the best Weatherby eye half doughnut's I have seen, well the claret was p*ssing out of it very well luckily none got on the bluing of the tang or receiver.
We took him to the Harvey Hospital E.D where he received 4 stitches for his effort needless to say it was a very quiet trip to & from hospital.

As a foot note on recoil I once burst a blood vessel in my shoulder shooting my 12 ga SKB semi auto in a trap competition I did not stop straight away and ended up holding the gun off my shoulder eventually I had to stop it was just agony to keep going.

Winchester introduced their first semi auto rifles in 1905, these rifles used the blow-back type of action where the heavy bolt and lighter cartridge work together - like the modern day 22 rim fire semi auto.

The first cartridge was the 32 WSL which was expensive and for small game. But has a history as it became the 30M1 carbine cartridge with modifications. (early 30 carbine headstamps are 32 WSL) This cartridge fired a 165 gr bullet at 1400 fps.

Next was the 35 WSL which was very close to a rimless 38 special cartridge and I use 38 special case with the rim turned-down and a extractor groove cut to make these cartridges. A 180 gr bullet at 1450 fps was used.

In 1907 Winchester introduced the larger Model 1907 chambering the 351 WSL cartridge. Often used by Police Depts and shipped to France during WW1. France were produced their own 351 cartridges with a French headstamp. Winchester did make a full auto model in 1918 too. The 351 used a 180 gr bullet at 1850 fps

Last was the Model 1910 chambered for the 401 WSL cartridge, this was much better for game at close range in the woods. It fired a 250gr bullet at 1870 fps.

Some years ago, I bought a three digit serial numbered 1905 in 35 WSL and really enjoy shooting a semi auto rifle manufactured in 1905, it works fine without any problems and well made

Here is my 5.7 x 43 mm Sako think these were the .222 don't see many around these parts.

303 SMK reload for scale.

Back around 1961 the 7,62x39 was necked down to to 22 caliber, actually might have been military test before by the Soviets. Sometimes called the 5,6x39 Russians and used for competition and hunting. By 1964 SAKO had the same cartridge and called it the 220 SAKO.

the Soviet 5,6x39 fired a 43 gr bullet at 3379 fps

photo shows 5,45x39, 5,6x39 and 7,62x39

should also note that the 22PPC and 6mm PPC had the parent cartridge of theAttachment 128261 220 SAKO

Interesting information RCS thx for the share nice collection there.

My photo shows more variations to the 1950 designed 222 Remington ( I have a Rem 40XBR single shot rifle in this cal).

left the 17/222 rem wildcat which is about forty years old now, fires a 25gr bullet at 4000 fps if everything works.

next the standard 222 rem and the 222 rimmed which is not common in the USA but an excellent Martini or other single shot cartridge.

Also the 222 Rem magnum an excellent cartridge but died soon after the 223 cartridge

last the 6x47 cartridge which always had a following and still usedAttachment 128262

The 6.5 x 57 Mauser was developed @1893 - '94 as a necked down version of the 7 x 57mm cartridge. It was never adopted as a military cartridge by any military power, however it undoubtedly influenced the design of many of the 6.5 military cartridges. (Source C O W 14th Ed page 574.)

What I find interesting about this one I have is the stabs on the primer pocket which I thought was only used on some 303 rounds that I have which apparently was to stop the primers backing out when used in aircraft M.G's (see pic #2)

303 MkVII for scale.

Three auto loading cartridges from the period before and after WW1.

The first is the 9.8 Colt Auto cartridge from around 1910, designed in a slightly smaller Colt 1911 pistol. Used in trials in Romania and Serbia but never adopted. Fires a 130 gr bullet @ 1200 fps Larger diameter then 38 Colt autoAttachment 128292

the Model 1923 Thompson cartridge, 1/8 inch longer case with a 250gr bullet at 1450 fps. This was a special Thompson submachine gun design to be an improvement over the 1921 model, use a special 18 rd magazine. Soon died from lack of interest.

the 455 Webley auto issued to naval units than the flying corps. Also chambered in the Colt 1911 pistol too. Fires a 200gr bullet at 1200fps from the Webley auto pistiol, cartridges are available in USA, new manufacture

I'll load some more pics tomorrow night with Metrics no pics RCS !
It seems they come and go for me anyway don't know if any of you lose the pics failing to load up, well the top ones load and stop at #100 on my comp.

My 9.5×57mm Mannlicher–Schönauer (MS) cartridge.
This was adopted for the M-1910 MS rifle and carbine in 1910.[3] (Note: The name Schoenauer is correctly spelled Schönauer with an “umlaut” over the “o” in German.) The 9.5×57mm MS is also known as the 9.5×56mm MS, the 9.5×56.7mm MS, and the .375 Rimless Nitro Express (RNE) × 2¼ (primarily in England). The cartridge may have been created by Westley-Richards and Eley in 1908 (rather than by the Oestereichischer Waffenfabrik-Gessellschaft, Steyr (OWS) (Austrian Arms Manufacturer-Association, Steyr)), but no production rifles in this caliber have been found prior to the M-1910. This development by or on behalf of Steyr was probably an answer to the development by the noted British gunmaking firm of Holland & Holland in 1905 of their .400/375 Belted Nitro Express, designed for their specially modified Mannlicher–Schoenauer rifle (they imported the actions from Austria, but built the rifles in house). Whether the development of the 9.5×57mm Mannlicher–Schoenauer cartridge originated with OWS or with Holland's British competitor, Westley Richards certainly was the principal promoter of the new 1910 Model Mannlicher–Schoenauer rifle as evidenced by catalogs of the time. The 9.5×57mm MS is the last pre-war proprietary cartridge by Steyr and their most powerful until the recent advent of the .376 Steyr, which has its antecedents in the 9.5×57mm.

303 MkVII for scale.

Developed in Finland by necking down the military 7,62x53r cartridge to use a 6,3 mm bullet
(SAKO loading was 70gr bullet at 2936 fps) and used for long range bird hunting. They shot the birds on the ground not in flight and also used on small game.

Manufactured by Lupua and SAKO with the 6,3x53r headstamp until the early 1970's.

Russians also used their own 6,3x53r cartridge with a more powerful loadingAttachment 128347Attachment 128346

Rumbling around looking for other Metrics I found this one its not often seen and it popularity has faded with the advent of other cartridges.

My 308 Norma Magnum.
The .308 Norma Magnum (7.62×65mmBR) cartridge was created by Nils Kvale at Norma, Sweden. Like the larger .358 Norma Magnum it is based on the .300 H&H Magnum. The length of the case is the longest that would fit in a standard Mauser action. While it appeared to have a bright future initially, it was soon superseded in popularity by the .300 Winchester Magnum. The first, and one of the few, manufacturers to offer rifles in .308 Norma Magnum was Schultz & Larsen of Denmark and they still are.

In the late 1940s, Kvale designed a wildcat called 8mm Kvale. It was intended for use in the German surplus 8mm Mauser M98 that flooded the American market after the war and was therefore nicknamed 'Poor Man's Magnum'. Kvale used the case from the .300 H&H Magnum and reduced the rim diameter so it would fit the bolt of a Mauser M98. The lessons learned from this cartridge were put into the .308 and .358 Norma Magnum.

The demise of the Norma Magnum case can be summed up as a marketing failure on Norma's part. Although rifles were available in this caliber, only brass for reloading was available in large quantities, with Norma the only manufacturer of ready-made ammo. Winchester, however, was able to produce the popular model 70 rifles in their caliber and mass-produced ready-made ammo to the American public. This was the main reason of the 300 Winchester Magnum's popularity over the 308 Norma Mag. The 308 Norma Magnum is considered by many reloaders as a better caliber compared to the 300 Winchester Magnum that essentially replaced it.

Pics L - R ~ 308 Norma Magnum, MkVII 303, 308 Win reload with 168gn A Max

I thought I should clarify the difference between the Sako 5.7 x 43 against a regular .223 to clear up if ppl think it is the same as the .223 or 5.56 rounds.
So I dug out a packet of Bentley Sporting .223 and compared it to the Sako round and as you can tell there is a vast difference in the two rounds.
I included a pic of the packet as you don't see them around to often plus Bentley made more than just cars and shotguns.

Pic # 1 ~ .223 on the left Sako 5.7 x 43 on the right.
Pic # 2 ~ Bentley packet of 20 rounds .223 sporting ammunition.

The 5,7x43 is the metric designation for 222 Remington and the metric designation for 223 Remington is 5,7x45mm

Now the 222 Remington has almost disappeared from the target shooters and hunters, but still an excellent cartridge

One of our club shooters has a 222 Mag that he shot at the club on the shorter ranges 100 - 300m but I have not seen him use it for quite some years now.

Most are familiar with the 7,62mm Russian Nagant revolver cartridge, adopted by Russia in 1895 - but before the Russian cartridge there was the 8 mm Piper revolver cartridge

The 8mm piper (8,4x40r) was adopted by Mexico in 1893 with both the revolver and revolver carbine. The Mexican Rurales used the revolver carbine on horseback as it could be operated with only one hand.

While quite popular in Mexico few ever came across the border to the USA where it was almost unknown. Both Winchester and Remington manufacture the 8 mm Piper cartridge for sale in Mexico

The Piper fired a 106gr FMJ at 1150 fps (Remington loading) and also had a three round ball load with a total weight of 133 grs. Remington loaded the 8mm Piper from 1901 to 1921.

My photos show both the 7,62 Nagant and 8mm Piper which is the longer cartridgeAttachment 128487Attachment 128488Attachment 128489

Neat old revolving carbine. That would give quite a high rate of fire in close quarters from a body of troops...

My metrics lined up the very tall one is the NIMROD 9.3mm x 82mm on its left is the Schuler 11.2mm x 72mm there are some that were not part of the thread like the Kropatschek cartridge the Arisaka 6.5mm as most of you are familiar with those rounds.

I will get some of my wildcat rounds out some you may not have seen or known about so in a bit then.

That is really a nice photo of your metric cartridges. I noticed the 6,5 Japanese (9th from right side) but which cartridge is the Kropatscek ?

I thought it was the one 4th from the Rt but its rim does not look like a Kropatschek cartridge I'll dig the round back out and see if I can identify it I apologise for my error.

So in searching around I found I apparently have a 7.7 Jap 13th from the Rt as that round has no H/S! I'm learning all the time with this pass time.

my guess, the the 4th from left is 8x50R Mannlicher and 4th from right is 8x56R

my 6,5 Jap and 7,7 Jap on five round clips are without headstamps

The Jap 7,7 for their Lewis m/g has headstamps as mine is 1943 and will chamber in a Lee Enfield too
but would never think to fire it.

I found in my small wildcat cartridge collection, a basic cartridge case with the SUPER X 300 WIN MAG head stamp. What is interesting is this case has both a belt and a rim which is not normally found on a cartridge. This case length is 2.85 inches with a 1/2 inch inside diameter at the case mouth.

This could be madeAttachment 128625Attachment 128626Attachment 128627Attachment 128628Attachment 128629 into the 458 Lott and similar cartridges which would also include the 475 OKH etc.

Interesting variation cartridge...

I'll share the wildcats I have here is one based on the 222 Rem case the .17 Javelina.
MkVII for scale

This cartridge was developed by the well known hunter and Gun Editor of the magazine Field & Stream for 24 years, Warren Page. Mr Page was also a well known bench Attachment 128655rest shooter too

Page designed a cartridge with some help and tried to sell the idea to Winchester. Winchester rejected the cartridge and redesigned it as the 243 Win with a 17 degree shoulder while Page's cartridge used a 20 degree shoulder and longer neck.

Page's second cartridge shown here, is the 240 Page Super Pooper next to a 6mm Remington cartridge. Custom gunsmiths could ream out a 6mm chamber for the 240 Page cartridge.

the 240 Page Super Pooper fired a 90gr bullet at 3350 fps