K31 Reloading help again! Bullets are too big?

OK; This is a fool-proof method to obtain an appropriate seating depth in ANY rifle.

First; you need two things. A 36" length of 1/4" diameter dowel from the hardware store.Next, a new lead pencil.

With the bolt out of the rifle, drop a bullet that you want to use into the barrel from the chamber end, and with the pencil, push the bullet up the barrel until it stops on the lands. Hold it there with your pencil.

With your other hand, lower the 1/4" dia. dowel slowly down the barrel from the muzzle end until it stops on the bullet tip. Slowly remove the pencil, without disturbing the bullet, and then with the pencil, mark a line on the dowel level with the end of the muzzle.

Remove the bullet, and replace the bolt in the fired position. Now let the dowel slide down the bore until the end rests on the bolt face. With your pencil, make another mark on the dowel at the muzzle. Remove the dowel, and measure the distance between the two pencil marks.

This distance will represent the O/A length of your loaded round BUT ONLY FOR THAT PARTICULAR BULLET WEIGHT, AND BULLET NOSE PROFILE. Change your bullet make, and you will have to repeat the above process all over again. Now this method of measurement gives me the best accuracy out of my K.31 and other rifles. If you run your loads a tad on the hot side, reduce the O/A length by a couple of thou. Some rifles do have long throat leads, and the dowel & pencil will soon show this up.
If with a worn throat, or long lead you find the reverse that the bullet only just sits in the case when you set your seating die up, always ensure that what ever the bore diameter is of your rifle, seat that bullet no less than it's diameter, eg: bullet dia .308", seat the bullet to a depth of .308" in the case neck. This comment only relates to rifles with worn throats or leads.

Now I'm sure that there will be comments contrary to the above, but as a competitive target shooter and hand-loader of some 50-plus years, I'm still here. I've shot Olympic three-positional using some of the best rifles ever designed; Hammerli, Schultz & Larsen, Steyr, Tanner and prototypes, and I find that the above simple system of tailor-made O/A cartridge lengths works best for me when the bullet is JUST touching the lands with a turn-bolt, and one to two thou. back with the straight-pulls.

The above method is made as a suggestion in obtaining a cartridge overall length to suit your rifle. The powder load and bullet choice is at your own discretion.

I certainly appreciate your 50 years, knowledge and awards, but in the case of any hollowpoint projectile that method leaves a lot to be desired unless you're meplat trimming and pointing every projectile.
Meplats are seldom the same and mostly always irregular by more than a couple of thous.
There's certainly a faster, better method. I'm betting you already know what that is.
Indexing on the ogive is critical for long range shooting. The cartridge OAL means nothing to me at all.

Latigo

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Originally Posted by Latigo

The cartridge OAL means nothing to me at all.

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Well it will if you can't get the cartridge into the magazine :lol:

Seriously, neither Uncle Ray's Q&D method not my SbP method will give the answer to the last thou, and I have seen myself how meplats vary. I already pointed out that even with the excellent Lapua Scenars the OAL varies with a spread of about 4 thou - for that very reason - the RCBS competition seater is indeed indexing on the ogive, as do most (I'm not going to bet on all ) top punches (odd name, one doesn't punch with it). However, we all refer to OAL, and you are right to point out that that is not what we really mean (or ought to mean?).

But these methods put you quite close for a good first approximation. When I have made such a measurement, I seat the very same bullet in an empty case with the top punch screwed right out, and then by trial and error screw down the top punch and re-seat it until the OAL is about 20 thou longer than the SbP measurement. I then "paint" a black ring around the bullet with a felt marker pen, let it dry, and then reload the case in the rifle. When the cartridge is removed, the forcing cone, lead, transition, throat or whatever you like to call it will have made tiny marks at the contact points. Again, reseat a couple of thou deeper, paint and repeat, until no marks are produced. At this point the seating of THAT bullet is such that it is just off the lands.

As already remarked, since every mechanical item has tolerances, I like to take that setting and back off 8-10 thou (.2 - .25mm) for the final setting. For BPCRs I make that 20 thou, because of the fouling that builds up in a competition where you cannot thoroughly clean the rifle between shots.

If you like, you can go for 5 thou or even less. It depends how much confidence you have in your equipment. But on simple mechanical considerations, a seating clearance that varies from say 8 to 12 thou is going to cause less shot-to-shot pressure variation than one that varies from +2 (i.e. just free) to -2 (i.e. cammed into the lands).

Patrick
:wave:

Yup. :thup: Mostly what I do.

Latigo

... is the head space. Or, to be more precise, the head clearance, i.e. the end play or "slop" of the loaded cartridge. Let us say you have a real service rife, not a bench rest construction. It will have a head clearance of say, 6-8 thou. So what happens when you fire that cartridge?

The firing pin rams the cartridge right up the chamber until it stops, and then continues to detonate the primer.
- So your bullet just got 6-8 thou closer to the lands.
Now the prime ignites the powder, the case expands to grip the wall, the base moves back, causing the cartridge stretch that bothers head-space worriers in the first place.

But what happened to your "just 3 thou off the lands" seating.
It went to zero, that's what. And your bullets were jammed into the thoat before the powder was properly ignited.

And now you know why I seat my bullets in a fashion that some may consider over-conservative.
And why I only use neck-sized cartridges that have been fired in the same rifle.

Feel free to comment, disagree, and correct. But reasoned argument please!

Patrick
:wave:

Patty, me boyo........ Are you talking about a k31?

Latigo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Latigo

Patty, me boyo........ Are you talking about a K31

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Just because my mother's name was Bridget and her father came from Cork, that's no reason to call me boyo!:madsmile:

And I am talking about just about any old service rifle. Real rifles have a head clearance. Even if it's just the spring-back of neck-sized brass. OK, I haven't actually got a K31. But a Swiss G96/11 may count as a reasonable comparison. And I use the same method for all my rifles - except the Snider, where you are brutally limited by the length of the "shoe".

As to the K31 the best advice I could give, apart from that already proposed re. reloading, is to get a sackful of the GP11 ammo, if you can find any. A year or so ago there was a lot on offer here, but it has now vanished. I suppose the Swiss cleared out their reserves and that was that.

Patrick
:wave:

The Cork Examiner, 10 October 1862
HOGAN'S STATUE OF O'CONNELL.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE FREEMAN. DEAR SIR.—I observe in the report of the proceedings on Monday, of the corporation, upon the motion originated by Dr. Gray, for allocating the site in Sackville-street, at the foot of Carlisle-bridge, for the monument to our illustrious Liberator, that allusion was made to a statement that a large sum of money was due to the late John Hogan for the Liberator's statue, now standing in the City Hall. Allow me to correct that mistake. Not only was the full amount paid by the Liberator to the unrivalled Irish sculptor for that noble work, but a sum in addition. The money was paid in instalments—the first before the work was commenced —the second when the marble was about to be purchased, and the last when the statue was finished and placed in its present location, whereupon Hogan gave a final acquitance in full. It is right to state that the original motion of the Repeal Association for that statue was instituted by my friend John Reilly.—I am, dear Sir, yours faithfully,T. M. RAY. POLICE OFFICE—THIS DAY.
——————
(Before Messrs. SHAW and ORME, R.M.)A MAN named Mountain was fined 5s., or in default a week's imprisonment, for assaulting Sub-Constable Walsh while the latter was carrying him drunk to the Bridewell.
A number of women of the town were fined 5s., or in default a week's imprisonment, for being drunk and disorderly in the streets last night.
A young lad named Patrick Chadwick was put forward by Constable Molony, who stated that on last night the prisoner ran up Tuckey-street, shouting into every house as he passed.
The bench discharged him with a caution.
James Sullivan, publican, Evergreen, was summoned at the suit of the authorities to contribute to the support of his son, who is at present in the Upton Reformatory.
Mr. Blake appeared for the defence, and called one of the contables of the district, who stated that Sullivan was a poor man, with a wretched little public-house.
The bench fixed the amount to be paid at 1s. a week.

Great article! Thanks for that. As for the k31 and headspace................
My Dad has done this for some 45 years or more, and there have been a lot, maybe 80 or more k31's pass through here. We have Go, No Go and Field guages here and not once ever has a k31 here been found to be out of spec. We still have a few of them. :lol:
This is part of the west wall in the armoury.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...zfk55IOR-1.jpg

My Dad has always specialized in Swiss rifle load data development, and for the past three years I've joined him. He was so in love with the rifle that he began our second family business, Swiss Products. One of your Mods here is our Canadian Distributor.

We probably have an easy 3,000 GP11 still here, but its' only used in the zfk55 sometimes, so it'll be here a long time. We only use RUAG Swiss National Match brass for reloading.
As for the GP11, there are still an estimated 7,000,000+ rounds in Switzerland eligible for export.

Sure and begorrah, Patty! Its been a pleasure talking with you. :D ... and thanks again for that article.

Latigo

Well, I can't disagree with either Patrick's of Latigo's approach for a different reason. Yes; I'm aware that there is a variation in meplat location.But give what I wrote some thought; I AM indexing the projectile on the meplat. If the bullet cannot proceed any further into the bore, then what is stopping it?.

My next step is to set up a dummy round in the bullet seating die, and using the same projectile placed loosely in the sized case. I gradually wind down the seating screw, checking the overall cartridge length until the O/A length corresponds with what was measured, minus two thou.for the straight-pull. This gives me my O/A length for that particular profiled bullet.

My local range is limited to 300 metres, and when shooting at this range on the old ISU Olympic target with a 10cm (3.94") "10" ring, the projectiles I use on this target are batched for uniform weight, and meplat location (yes, even the Lapua scenars vary), and of late I have been using the 155gn HBC-BJD (Dyer MKII) projectile produced in Darwin, Australia, due to this bullet's greater uniformity AND accuracy over the other match projectiles. This is my choice for use in my K.31, and other 30.cal. rifles, and yes; it has a hollow point.

Here I should clarify one thing. All of my competitive shooting is single-shot; no magazine-loading. Because of the short distance I shoot, I don't worry about closing the hollow point; that's not critical in my situation. As I previously said, the "Stick and Pencil" method is all I need. If you are shooting 1,000yds or more, that is a different story, for other reasons.

But while we are mentioning hollow-points, let's think about this. Is every K.31 or earlier model shooter on this forum endeavouring to go to all this trouble if all he wants to do is shoot occasionally at 100 or 200 yards? If he belongs to a Military Rifle Club which requires him to shoot rapid as well as slow-fire, he does not really need to go to the effort as described above, including Latigo's & Patrick's suggestions. I am aware that some military rifle clubs will only allow FMJ projectiles. The Prvi Serbian 174gn is one we use in Australia, being the cheapest.

The critical things to remember (as previously mentioned) is (1) not to jam the bullet into the rifling, and (2) make sure that when loading the bullet into the case, the die is properly set up to ensure that a slight bulge does not occur on the case at the junction of the shoulder with the wall of the case.
Now these comments are not mentioned to draw a rebuff from either Latigo or Patrick, who are both experienced reloaders, but Newbie's to this game need to be eased into reloading for the K.31 at ground level, that means starting off with cheap SP bullets, or 30 cal. military projectiles, then working their way up if they want to go further.

We could confuse them at this stage by introducing meplats, G1 BC's V's G7 ballistic co-efficients, VLG's, "transonic" velocities, and so on. That is the best way to put a new shooter off reloading. The K.31 will group very well with the Remington 180gn round-nose, soft point, flat-based garden-variety projectile out to 200+ yds; ideal for a newbie to start off with, and cheap, too; as is the Serbian .30 cal. military projectile.

In 1960 a British .303" No.4 properly bedded target rifle fitted with an aperture sight, and shot from a rest was considered excellent if it could put 10 shots into one and a half inches with military ammunition at 100 yards. We have come a long way since then with projectiles, and powder. This led to hand-loading producing for the price, a better alternative to factory ammunition - which in itself is OK for the casual shooter.

My K.31-as issued, made in 1941 will put 10 shots into one and a half inches, bench-rest,when loaded with the 180gn Rem. Do we need to spend a fortune on projectiles only to shoot at 100 or 200 yds? The answer is NO. Powder load and seating depth is more important for shooting at the short ranges.

In Australia we have never been blessed with military-issue GP11, hence our handloads. Latigo; you are lucky that you are down to your last 3,000 rounds. Don't shoot 'em all off at once!