Where are all the ross rifles?

Try Beaufort's **** or the Hurd Deep:
http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/5750E...y_sea_dump.pdf

When I was first finding out about Rosses about 12 years ago, one of the Ross experts told me that a lot of surplus weapons that couldn't be off-loaded any other way after WW1 were simply dumped at sea - along with the worn-out Smellies, knackered artillery pieces - oh! and lots of unused gas projectiles and other obsolete high explosive . . .

This is why the UK was in such desperate straits in 1940-1, after the BEF had lost the majority of its equipment at Dunkirk and the arms factories and US contractors weren't yet up to speed - there was no reserve at all to fall back on.

And in 1946-7 and onwards to the 1970s, the same thing happened again - especially as Rosses, Arisakas , P14s and P17s, etc were now considered obsolete when matched against AK47s and so on . . .

Try the diving clubs/websites - most have them have stories of wrecks of military transports and evidence of dumping of all sorts of military material - it's just that simple rifles tend to get forgotten in the fuss about obsolete and deteriorating NBC weaponry.

Sorry, but I can't remember my source - I think it was one of the Canadian experts, but I'm not sure about that.

As for Rosses in large numbers in Russia - surely they would have been in the first convoys to Russia in 1941-2, and so issued to the PBI fighting the 1942 summer campaign, Stalingrad, etc and then Kursk? Some of those would have been captured by the Germans and would have appeared long since, especially with the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the selling-off of obsolete military hardware to all comers? And we would be seeing Rosses with all sorts of non-British/Canadian (i.e., Cyrillic) stamps?

P.S. Sorry - this website won't let me enter the word **** - hope my meaning's obviious with a little bit of Googling

This is more than a little late, but I have a bit of info that may be useful.

That total number you had for production, was that just mk3s, or did it include Mk2s? I do know, for example, that at least one batch of 10,500 mk2s (known as the "3 star") were sold to the Americans in WW1, and were primarily used as training rifles. Some American "state" units ("State militia"?) used these as service rifles, and if I recall correctly, the New York units had them until the early 1950's. I recently got a mk2 3-star that might have been from that batch, but was almost certainly from the US. I don't have a rear sight on it yet. Mechanically it's in great shape, bore looks great, and shoots beautifully. Can't wait to get a sight on it.

The one thing I will add to this conversation even though I know it is late, is trying to track down what happened to most of them will be difficult to say the least. 420,000 isn't a massive amount of rifles produced, as much as we may think otherwise. Things like the Lebel had 3.5 million produced but I have never seen a Lebel in person but I have seen about 10 Rosses.

War usage, sporterization, supplying to foreign governments, and destruction instead of surplus has lead to very few original examples remaining. In particular the sporterization here in Canada really lead to many being taken out of original state as they were available as surplus long before any other more 'modern' alternatives were available (Lee Enfields, Mausers, etc.).

I am surprised you have not read about India. I do not have the links but you can follow the story up.
I think you will find the "missing" Ross Rifles were given to India by the Brittish as training rifles.
The Indians were desperate for rifles to train their troops and asked the Brits to help. Now the Brits dis not want to give the Indians live firing rifles as there was unrest in the country and they did not want them being used against them, so they were given Thousands of Ross Rifles upon the condition that they were all converted to DP.
It appears this DP deactivating was done in 3 ways.
1.Hole drilled through the chamber.
2. Hole drilled through the action/chamber.
3. Hole drilled through the chamber and action/chamber and a pin welded in.

How do I know? I have purchased one of each over the years. There were a hundred or so imported by an Australian dealer between 20-30yr ago and on the sale advertisement it said "welding rods supplied to repair it yourself" So I have been told.
The one I had with a hole in the chamber only had a brand spanking new barrel. And when repaired it shot MOA.

Now I also happened to talk to a dealer that was involved in international trading years ago and he did a lot of dealing in India. He said in a huge warehouse he saw a "huge" pile of DP Ross Rifles mounded up in the middle on the floor and would have estimated thousands. He said he sould have bought them as they were dirt cheap, but he said "no one wanted Ross Rifles, you can't give em away". And he was probably right at the time.
My guess is that they were scrapped.

If you can find research on this it may solve your question.
Cheers.

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Originally Posted by martins8589

a "huge" pile of DP Ross Rifles

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That would be about the time gazillions of dewat rifles and DPs appeared in Canada. They had been drilled through the chamber left to right and they were all consumed. You can't find one today.

There was plenty of destruction going on in Canada post-WWII and perhaps before that. There's an account online of rifles being gathered up from schools in Ontario(?) stacked up and burned, other accounts of large numbers of rifles being sent to steel mills etc. Lots of dumping of munitions at sea on both coasts after WWII...Armouries and depots were cleaned out of accumulations sometimes going back almost a century.

Was it 15,000 or 25,000 MkIIIs sent to Armenia that was mentioned on Gunboards? China got some, India who knows how many, but probably tens of thousands...

We can be pretty sure there was nothing much left in the UK, since in 1940 Canada was asked to supply MkIIIs fitted with scopes for sniping purposes. (Without Warning)

According to the same source Canada had 121,179 MkIII Rosses on hand in 1939. Some of these obviously went to the UK, but how many?

As these rifles were replaced for training and 2nd line purposes, what happened to them? My bet would be they were smelted while the war was still on. In the same book there is a quote from official correspondence about the Warner & Swasey scoped rifles that had been used for training since 1939/40. The recommendation was that the sights be scrapped and it seems most of them were.

Scrap mania was well under way here in Canada as well: look at the WWI war trophies that were rounded up and scrapped for example.

Turkey got some via England also.

Losses during WWI were heavy (combat loss as well as thrown away by the troops). Those pulled from service when replaced by the SMLE were given to British rear line groups (guards) and the Royal Marines, who stamped them with the naval depot they were assigned to (CRB for Crombie, PLY for Plymouth, etc). Post war, many of those were sent to India and the middle East along with nearly all of the Mk IIIB (so called War Office Pattern) which is why most of the Mk IIIB found have Indian issue stamps on them. Some were DP as a previous poster has mentioned but not all. It is safe to assume a lot of those deteriorated or were scrapped, and some were surplussed back to North America. Others of the ones in BRitish stores were scrapped, and a fair number seem also to have been made available to the "trade" as many were sporterized by British gun houses.

Rosses were also sent to Russia during the revolution to arm the White Russians, and those pop up periodically in photographs from the 1970's. Some were also sent to the Balkans apparently. Some of these Russian bound Rosses were reportedly used in the Winter War as there are reports of some being used by the Finns. Given the massive losses and destruction in Russia during WWII it is safe to assume that any Rosses there were either issued and lost, issued and then scrapped post war as being completely non standard. If some were used and were captured by the Germans, it would be safe to assume we don't see them because I can't possibly see the Germans keeping them--they would have property stamped and reissued any useable firearms as they did, but I don't think they would have been too interested in keeping a WWI era long clunker in .303 to reissue on the Russian front.

A fellow collector told me about a gunsmith long since passed away who talked about readying a large number of Rosses for shipment to China during the 1930's as part of a private purchase shipment for some warlord or other.

So, where are all the Mk III and Mk IIIB Rosses? In the mud of France, at the bottom of the sea, scrapped/dumped/sporterized in Great Britain, exported from GB to Russia, Far East/Middle East and therefore scrapped or lost in Russia, or scrapped, destroyed or deteriorated in India/Far East/Middle East. Ones staying in Canada were either sporterized in Canada, scrapped, sent to China, and a few are still intact and in collections. There is a bustling market now in reproduction stocks and parts to bring back the sporters. The Indian dewats can be readily identified by having a dark oily stock, dark oily metal, and a matching pair of "half moon" divots out of the top of the main stock just by the receiver where the drill went through.

Ed

So are these a "if you see one, move on it" kind of deal? Or a gun that if you'd rather spend the money on other things, you can wait to locate later? I don't see them often here in the states but I've seen more than I've seen Lebels. Specifically asking as there is a Ross Mk2 coming up for auction tomorrow and while it would be a great addition, I'm really deep in the search for a Polish M44 and Japanese paratrooper right now.

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Originally Posted by boltaction

The Indian dewats can be readily identified by having a dark oily stock, dark oily metal, and a matching pair of "half moon" divots out of the top of the main stock just by the receiver where the drill went through.

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Those would be the very ones I speak of.