Printable View
We should also consider serviced rifle to service rifle.
In that regard I think the 1917 wins hands down as it has a far superior sight system than the 1903.
So for field work and aimed fire the 1917 would be superior (IMNSHO)
The 1903 would be handier for a very active combat situation with quicker acquisition and quicker working bolt.
Do not forget-the M1903 was a compromise. Originally the US service rifle was issued in two configurations: the carbine for cavalry and the rifle for infantry. The original Krag rifle had a 30 inch barrel and a 22 inch barrel for the carbine. Ordnance decided to issue only one rifle, therefore the M1903 was designed with the 24 inch barrel as a compromise. In the early part of the twentieth century, the bayonet was considered to be the most important part of an infantry mans equipment to be supplemented by the rifle. To compensate for the short M1903 rifle, the ordnance department issued a 16 inch bayonet. Since it was common practice to enter battle with a fixed bayonet, I do not know that the M1903 would be any handier that a M1917, though I believe that the 1917 bayonet also had a 16 inch blade. Most infantry rifles of the era had 30 inch barrels, the exception being the SMLE (25.2 inches). The GEW 98 in rifle form had a 29 inch barrel. To the French “elan” and the bayonet would turn the tide of battle, hence the three shot magazine on the French rifle and the 31.2 inch barrel.
The battle sight on most WWI rifles were set for about 400 to 500 yards as tactics called for firing with the rifle at these ranges and then closing with the bayonet. Most army generals ignored the Machine Gun to the tragedy of many WWI troops. As late as 1917 the French launched a cavalry charge against German equipped machine gun groups-with predictable results – massacre.
Most US troops were equipped with the M1917 and most of the green US troops (there were only a small number of trained riflemen, Regular army and USMC) had very little experience with bolt action rifles (the lever action Winchester type was the most popular action up until WWI) so learning to operate a cock-on-closing would not have been any thing they would have been uncomfortable with.
FWIW
Thanks for the offer of the barrel. I may take you up on it. I got to the range finally. I took some LC 52, Federal 150gr SPs, and my Hornady hunting ammo. Of course the old gal liked the most expensive stuff best.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...1a8d0f67-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...207625d7-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...15b4a17d-1.jpg
The one concern is the neck of the cases. The old stuff split and the newer rounds look like some gas is coming back. Is the throat eroded to the point of concern? I don't see this on my newer gun or my 03. Left to right is LC, Federal, and Hornady.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...754ba3e1-1.jpg
Disclaimer: I am using a front rest. There's no way I could pull that off any other way!
I doubt your chamber is at fault. Brass will get thin and do that to spite you. Gash bin it and get another one out. I have that happen all the time with one type of cartridge or another...
... stop worrying. The Lake city appears to be way past its "Bang by..." date. The dropped shot in the Federal group is probably "driver error" caused by the usual difficulty of seeing exactly where the tip of the blade is, especially if the light is varying. And the Hornady group is just fine. You need to shoot a lot more to decide which type of ammo has the edge.
Permitting ourselves to overlook the low shot on group 2 as anomalous, we have a service rifle that shoots 2 MOA at 100 yards. And the cases look OK to me. The case neck sits in the front end of the chamber, not the throat. So I don't see how a worn throat can hurt the cases.
And from my own practice and competition experience with an M1917, you are not going to get much below 2 MOA with a service rifle unless you have 1) perfect vision or 2) use a scope.
You appear to have a fine service rifle. It would be a grave error to re-barrel it unnecessarily.
SO DON'T WORRY, BE HAPPY:dancingbanana:
just practice and enjoy!
P.S: If the throat was seriously worn, all groups would be lousy. So it isn't.
It does shoot very good with the expensive ammo so it would seem the MW is good as well. TE can be off more and still ok.
Even with the scope mount I can't shoot that well most days (SK non intrusive so not as solid, tight or cheek rested if it was a drilled and tapped receiver which would also wreck the rifle value)
Handloads should do well.
It would be interesting to get those TE and MW measurements if he can get a gauge (or a known bullet in the muzzle so we can see how much it does swallow it, mostly curious on that regard as the accuracy is so good.
Mine all do a bit of blow by , it may be a factor of a bit loose chamber for the military rifles though not as loose as the 303s.
"It would be interesting to get those TE and MW measurements if he can get a gauge (or a known bullet in the muzzle so we can see how much it does swallow it, mostly curious on that regard as the accuracy is so good."
Take a loaded cartridge and "paint" the bullet with a felt-tip pen. Stick the bullet into the muzzle. If the case mouth contacts the muzzle, you really have a loose muzzle. If there is still some bullet showing, it's OK. Twiddle the cartridge round a few times and the muzzle will leave a bright line on the inked bullet. If you are very, very careful, you can measure the diameter at this line and have a fair idea of the bore (lands) diameter at the muzzle. But I always apply creative laziness, and simply reckon that if the case mouth does not touch the muzzle, it is OK - the lands will "bite" the bullet right up to the muzzle.
Ditto at the chamber end. Close the bolt on an EMPTY chamber and insert a meter/yard length of brass rod (6mm or 1/4" is handy) down to touch the bolt face. Mark the rod where it shows out of the muzzle. Now insert the bullet of your choice into the chamber and push it forwards with a pencil or whatever comes to hand until it is sitting against the throat. The rod will have been pushed somw way out of the muzzle. Mark it as before The difference between the two markings gives you the maximum cartridge OAL that you can use with that bullet with out having any free-flight. If that length permits the bullet to be seated at least 1 caliber into the case, then the throat is also usable.
A quick, simple method, that I use for "on the spot" evaluation of rifles. Not need whatsoever for fancy, expensive gauges. It tells you whether your bullet will work in your rifle.
There's another somewhat simpler and just as precise method for the determining max cartridge OAL. Color the bullet shank with the felt tip pen up to where the ogive begins and insert it about 1/32'' into a case that's had it's mouth pinched or sized just enough to keep the bullet in place. Now chamber and extract the dummy round, push the bullet out of the throat with a cleaning rod if necessary and very carefully reinsert the bullet in the case down to the where the pen coloring wasn't scraped off and measure the OAL with a gauge or calipers. This method will also show how much or little of the bullets shank is still in the case mouth when it touches the riflings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick
Excellent suggestion!
Like this...
Attachment 59553