No4 MK1 T

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Originally Posted by Surpmil

IMHO there are too many of these brackets around anyway for the purported issue to the tiny tinpot forces of some Indian Princely state to account for them. IIRC most of those states bought their own weapons privately and where would they have bought No4(T)s just after WWII??

Or does anyone believe the British Indian Army was handing such stuff out in 1946-47?

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Where do you think all the British kit and weapons went when we pulled out of India in 1947?

We certainly didn't bring it all home, we left most of it there. A lot of the stuff then got passed onto the regional paramilitary later on, to replace a lot of the captured kit we got of the Italians in East Africa, that we sent to the regional paramilitary forces in 1940/1, to replace the 19th century kit they were still equipped with. A lot of the markings seen on this ex-Italian stuff that has turned up, are the same makings to be seen on ex-British issue WW2 stuff that later turned up as well.

I hate to rain on everyone's parade but the "S51" alone being restamped on the butt makes me suspicious of this one. There's no legit reason other than fakery to do that and I've never seen it before. This rifle may be legit but I don't think I'd touch it. It makes for a great story though.

Bri, have a good look at the photo showing the rifle body round & including the front pad. I suspect that is a properly fitted front body pad........but as you say, who knows what happened to the rifle subsequently.

I wonder if the rifle body lower front has the 6 o'clock barrel indexing mark......?

This equipment is definitely full of puzzles and is definitely not a typical No.4 Mk.I (T).

Proving such a story can be very difficult and for what it is worth, I recommend that the owner write it down in as much detail as possible, including the serial numbers and the name of the uncle and if possible include old photos showing the rifle, sales receipt etc. I doubt that we would ever know the full story of this rifle. If the uncle is alive, definitely get a written statement from him.

Certainly if it was offered for sale it would be a difficult sale and most collectors would look at it as a parts source. At least the scope and bracket are original. The scope case appears to be original though the serial number label is very questionable. The No.15 Mk.I chest is also original though repainted. The rifle is the biggest problem. As Roger Payne pointed out, it looks like it started out as a legitimate No.4 Mk.I (T). Who made the changes and when? We know so little about changes made by post-WWII military and police users of these rifles.

This equipment reminds me of the 1950s-1960s cars one hears about in Cuba. Still running and perhaps looking good, but a far cry from the way they were when they left the factory.

The owner can enjoy this rifle as a family heirloom.

It's obviously an original No.4T cobbled up with an original bracket, telescope, and CES. It's value lies in the sum of the parts. I don't think there's a snow ball's chance in Hades that it left military or police service like that. Belgian or otherwise. Just my 2 cents. I've looked at one or two.

I'd be interested in how it shoots.

Not far off the OPs scope.Attachment 109349

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

Where do you think all the British kit and weapons went when we pulled out of India in 1947?

We certainly didn't bring it all home, we left most of it there. A lot of the stuff then got passed onto the regional paramilitary later on, to replace a lot of the captured kit we got of the Italians in East Africa, that we sent to the regional paramilitary forces in 1940/1, to replace the 19th century kit they were still equipped with. A lot of the markings seen on this ex-Italian stuff that has turned up, are the same makings to be seen on ex-British issue WW2 stuff that later turned up as well.

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Well, let's assume for a moment that something called "Gujarat Forces" actually existed, and that they marked their small arms in totally new and illogical ways, and that a whole bunch of kit was shipped out to them in 1945-47. Because the evidence is pretty clear that No32 Mk3 scopes had hardly reached the front lines by the end of WWII in Europe. There were weapons enough in the UK and Europe to equip huge armies which had just been demobbed, why take new weapons out of store and send them to India of all places? After WWI the second-line, unwanted stuff was sent to India: Rosses, P14s etc. Now, with Indian independence clearly in the offing, they are sent a bunch of new kit instead of some of the stuff sitting around from the demobbed armies of WWII?

Seems doubtful to me.

Not being an expert on post-colonial Indian/Pakistani history, I can't say when the Princely States disappeared, but IIRC it was not long after independence - or rather the rule of the various Ranas, Maharajas etc. went under, even if the states remained as geographic entities within the Indian federation(?)

So, their little "armies" died with them, and where did all the kit go again? Would have been collected up by the Indian Army and in some sense divvied up with East and West Pakistan by means fair or foul; at least that seems like a logical outcome to me.

The Indian Army was in no rush apparently to sell off their other holdings of No4(T)s, for example, so why would they sell off these? They would have just taken them into inventory and used them for another 50+ years as they did the other rifle we see on the market today.

It's not not like they had more of weapons than they wanted, or didn't have the space to store them or the labour to handle them, is it?

So let's assume also that they had some big pantograph engravers in Gujarat and they liked to mark things upside down, exactly what wold be the point of marking the scope brackets and not the scopes or the rifles? What tends to get stolen in that part of the world? Rifles...

So where's the big GF on the rifle? Or where's the GF stamped in the woodwork?

The whole things makes no sense whatever and therefore I'm not inclined to believe it without some documentation.

Now in those threads linked on the previous page, there was some debate about possible Israeli markings such as "AL" prefix serial numbers. I can well believe that Israeli buyers were combing through recently independent India for arms they could buy in 1947-48. And India is a country where money talks, walks and sings.

As for the rifle itself, severe identity crisis: replaced bolt, rifle renumbered to match the bolt...ugh!

Total bitzer, the label in the No8 Case giving M47C as the rifle number :rolleyes:

Perhaps Rose Bros. had a temporary surplus of work and sub-contracted to another foundry? The "JG" in that case would simply represent their inspection mark and be entirely in keeping with usual practice in such situations.

See my S 51 stamping on my T the ones top nib is straight rather than facing down and the stamping is more of a line than having flat spots like the one on the Op's butt.
Why do those linish marks on the safety spigot look fresh!

Geeram my T & scope were also used in front pad trials as it is listed in Peter's book on the T they are still together like the day they were matched and one cannot ask for better provenence for the rifle and scope being a ridgey didge sniper T than them being listed in that book.

You know, re the 'GF' stamp; it has never quite 'sat right' with me, but I've accepted the 'official' explanation as seeking a more convincing alternative has never been high enough up my list of things to do to to get done! Always plenty of other things to do that were more pressing. It might be correct, but in truth I share some of the skepticism stated above. I find the speculation that Rose Brothers could have farmed out some of the production work to other local companies an interesting possibility. And whilst GF might stand for Gujarat Forces, it could also conceivably stand for something like 'Gainsborough Foundries', or 'Gainsborough Fabrications', or some such. I wonder if the companies register of the time might shed any light on the issue.....?


As an aside, on the matter of Indian equipment & what they did or didn't have 4Twise. I've seen quite a lot of Indian issue 4T's over the years, including having the chance to inspect a batch of fifty of them at Charnwood about twenty five years ago. From what I could see there was a fair sprinkling of all marks of scope in amongst them. Similarly rifles; mostly BSA's, with the odd Long Branch, Savage, & even Trials rifle - just as one would randomly expect. I presume a lot of the kit was already there when the war ended & still there shortly after when Independence was gained.