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It is a distinction without any difference (or penalty)....the definition means nothing since the state got bounced by the Federal District Court for attempting to define an "automatic firearm" in terms OTHER than those established by Federal Law, and never bothered to fight it....which happened around 1973!
BTW; your not that old John, unless it took you a Loooong time to finish collage
we are about the same age. The last of the boomers.
Getting back to the original topic about the M14 case; Modifying is what got Mike Kelly in trouble: The BATFE's case revolved around being able to put the lug back on, as the take down notch was still present along with a groove under the op rod track.
This is getting ridiculous so don't take me too seriously. :) I don't recall the groove but couldn't an M1A receiver be machined to add the groove and take down notch and have a lug welded on? I assume a determined machinist could pull this off. Of course, none of it has anything to do with common sense. All one has to do is observe the current machinations of the house and senate to realize that most of these law makers are a bunch of loony scoundrels!! :rofl: Carl
As Carl said, one could take an M1A and easily convert it to full auto.
I could take an M-1 and in 30 minutes convert it to fire Full Auto, with the right tools. It would not be smooth or clean like a true M-14.
In Kelly's case, he had been welding M-14's for 10 years, with an ad running in the Shotgun News. When his business ramped up, he couldn't keep up, turned out some bad weld jobs. One disgruntled M-14 owner whined, the BATF revisited him, and the rest, as they say, is history. The BATF "expert" had the benefit of a complete gunshop, tools, and a videotape. He converted it just as easily as he could almost any other weapon.
But, the decks were stacked against Kelly, even though the NRA furnished one of their best lawyers. The government could not let this case win, it would open up many more cans of worms.
Those that have the "lost" Kelly M-14's --- it looks like only less than 50 were confiscated according to that link...... happy shooting.
At one point in the controversy, I spoke to the younger Kelly on the phone. He assured me that 1) they had a letter from BATFE saying the guns were legal semi-autos, and that a copy of the letter was included with each gun, 2) that if the gun I were to buy was ever questioned or seized, they would replace it with one of their new rifles, 3) they had full BATFE approval for that new rifle, and 4) MKS had the funds to reimburse buyers if their rifles were seized and they chose not to accept one of the new ones.
All lies.
The "letter" was from MKS saying that they were legal, not from BATF. The only "official" letter they had was to someone else, was over ten years old and didn't cover what MKS was doing. They tried to market a "new" rifle and BATF ordered that stopped as well; they never had any sort of OK from BATF. And they never refunded any money to anyone.
But Kelly was, like most con men, very slick talking and very persuasive. Skeptical already, I didn't order a rifle.
At the time, I saw several MKS M14's and thought they would be very difficult to convert, nor am I sure that was BATF's main point. The guns were M14's; they were marked "U.S. Rifle, Cal. 7.62mm, M14." Had the Kellys removed that marking, and stamped "MKS M14" or something similar they would have probably been OK, but then their primary market, mall ninjas and wannabee Delta Force, would have dried up.
Jim
Ah, the evil conversion parts. Used to be a guy who frequented the gun shows around here, had nice display cases with all kinds of parts for all kinds of rifles. The one section that always intrigued me was the M2 "replacement" parts". Many a fellow with a shopping list in his hand, consulting with a friend on who was going to buy which part. Next show, same people. Heard this from a guy whose co-worker's 2nd cousin's uncle had a friend who told him.
OFC
Here is a nice little True or False Test if you're a fan of ATF administrative rulings:
True or False:
#1. A shoestring is a machine gun.
#2. A round hole (the hole itself) consisting of air is a machinegun.
#3. Duct Tape is a machine gun.
High school ROTC in the early 1960's.
Summer camp at Fort Polk, Louisiana.
Fired the M2 carbine, the BAR, some got to fire 30 caliber machine guns.
And we fired our school's M1 Garands.
One young worthy had consulted with his Father, a WWII vet with experience in the European Theatre before we left.
On the range:
Ready on the right, Ready on the left, commerce fire.
BURRRRP-PING!
CEASE FIRE DAMMITT!
Gee, don't mess with the trigger group!
Paul K.
The common practice was for one dealer to carry four of the six or seven carbine parts, another to carry three or four others, so no dealer had a "machinegun", the full set. But someone who wanted to shop could easily buy all of them.
Trouble is that BATFE was onto the game and in one case followed a guy who bought all the parts. The agent made friends, they went to the friend's apartment, where the guy assembled the FA carbine (on video tape), then went to what the agent called "my uncle's farm" where they got great videos of the sucker firing the gun. Then, the arrest. Guy got off with suspended sentence, but as a convicted felon can never legally own another gun and probably can never get a job in any position of trust.
It ain't worth it, folks.
Jim
I have a M2 Slide and Sear. Can anyone tell me where I can get the rest of the parts.
I want to go BURRRRPPPPPPPP.