Have to know how they were built and when to properly ID
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eaglelord17
the amount of people who pulled them out of the grease originally is slowly declining. Really makes it hard to say anything definitively.
This the reason the records and observations of 40+ years of information gathered by the Michigan Carbine Collectors, The Carbine Club, The Carbine Collectors Club Forum, Larry Ruth and countless individuals observations are so important.
Gov records, Ordnance records, Company records, Company printed newsletters for employees, Gov and Sub contracts researched, TM's, FM's and employees interviewed.
Hours upon hours at the Archives.
Collectors and volunteers who worked with the DCM then CMP to observe and document.
Thousands of Data sheets to look over for comparison. Also add the Original Carbines Auctioned by the CMP.
NOS barrels and parts here in the states and sent as support to WWII allies being pulled from the wrap with markings, finish and milling styles noted.
Knowing who used what type of finish and how they prepped the metal before finish was applied ? Was the Frt sight, rear sight and barrel band on or off when the metal was finished ? How a maker finish assembled the carbine ? The production dates ? Who used what part and when ? Did that maker ever use that type part ? Who transferred what part to who and when ? When did upgraded parts show up? When or were serial numbers assembled in order ? Look at how the same maker changed the front receiver markings over time. Or how the rear receiver markings changed over time and letter / number font / size changed. Same with parts markings... some changed over time.
You also have to Know and recognize the milling / machining capabilities in the 40's...... etc.
Just trying to point out there are many known factors we can look for to tell Originality.
A single part or even 2 changed 2 years after issue will have matching wear patterns.
But what if those 2 parts were never documented as being used by maker XXX ?
Ask firstflabn or Jim Mock how many hours they've spent researching the Archives?
Or the German, Bavarian, Austrian and other countries returns from the lend lease program.
I guarantee it will be more than most here have ever spent reading about a M1 carbine.
Not trying to be rude, just pointing out there are so many factors.......
To Add: You could fill a book on how different makers and Subs Staked the rear sight pin, Or the style and location 'If' they staked the rear sight to the dovetails. Rear Adj Sights- How were they staked to the dovetails and what style / shape was that stake mark at what point in production?
Front sight pin staking styles ?
Who did... Who didn't stake the front sight key? If staked how was it done - What did it look like? .... etc
I agree having to put this much effort in to prove Originality takes dedication and a lot of effort. But by doing so...... "Really makes it hard to say anything definitively" can be overcome. If they can figure out the early Egyptians and the Mayans, putting in the 'Time and 'Research' will give most all the ability to ID a Original as Issued M1 Carbine.
My Tip if you choose to take it, is to Study the Fake Reproduction Carbines. Once you learn those, you'll know a Original Carbine if your fortunate to come across one.
That's what I was told when I started. But I had a card up my sleeve, having my Fathers Winchester hanging on the wall from the Philippines.
Thank You to my Fathers 2 Aussie friends and Allies :cheers:
1st Posted Question on Jouster
I remember my very 1st questions on Jouster, Not knowing I asked:
If a carbine was rebuilt was the stock restamped with the Crossed Cannons by Ordnance? Or for that example the boxed S'G' marking ?
I was totally reamed by about 6 guys being called a Stock Humper and worse. Many others jumping on.... being 'Followers'.
Marcus 'Might' remember and I know if Harlan was still here he would definitely remember. It was Harlan that told me step by step how to load pictures on a computer and how to attach them to a Email. I passed the pictures to both of them. Marcus was trying to buy it from me and took the time to explain what I had. It was a Hi-wood I cut IR-IP stock with a boxed IP and boxed S'G' both had a CC stamped by them. I also had another Hi-wood I cut marked IR-IP that had 2 boxed IP Stamps (Lightly stamped) on it and only 1 Crossed Cannons Stamp between them. I never showed the pictures to the name callers, but kept track of their names and posts for years to come.
Sure enough back when the last couple big sales of CMP Carbines were on, I seen all 6 of these 'Purist' listing their finds and serial numbers. Before your post ink was dry they were running WTB, WTT, WTS adds as fast as their carbines were coming in, 'Correcting' as fast as they could. Just a matter of months before they were bragging about their recent 'Original' finds..... Including many re-posting the serial numbers. Even caught some of them buying Bardalls Fake CC Stamps on Ebay.... back when you could see who the buyer was. I still have maybe a 100~ printed off Auction results showing names and feedback that many would recognize the usernames if you've been on the forums for a few years. I called it 'The List', Anyone remember 'The List' that I put together of Fake Stock Stamp buyers / sellers and those who would turn around and sell 'Humped Stocks' as Original markings. Fellow members would send me the links if I hadn't seen them so the Culprits were added to the list.
4 of those 6 are still around. But there are plenty more that say one thing and do another.
Don't believe all the 'Purist' some are outright liars.
I remember Dave's 5,6 WRA being called out as a Fake because the CC was too crisp.
I said right away if that one is Fake there isn't a real one left. And why didn't he dump the AU recoil plate? Which happens to have left matching milling marks impressions on the ledge.
But some like DaveHH have stood their ground honestly for years, never wavering from their original story. We call that Character where I come from. There are others that belong in that same group as DaveHH.
My Point is there are many out there that shouldn't be throwing stones.
Do what you want with them, your the current caretaker.
Just be honest about it. So the next caretaker will know it's true history.
Surely we owe this to others and especially the Men who served and died carrying these arms in battle.
Didn't mean to get so long winded....... :cheers:
