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I bought the Colt (mfg by Walther) M4 Carbine because I have four Grandchildren ranging in age from 5 to 16 to teach Firearms Safety, Maintenance and anything else they need to know. Using .223 would be cost prohibitive. When I am comfortable with their level of competence I have an M4 style AR for them to step up to. Not a lot of thought required. They look the same, work the same save for the (Bullet Button), have 10rd magazines. Makes perfect sense to me.
Training.
The S&W model is $400, and works exactly like a real AR except for the BCG. Unlike the Colt.
One of the big factors is IF you purchase the correct "AR style" .22 it is not restricted and you can actually take it to somewhere other than a approved range to shoot.
I have a friend that just bought one for around $600.00 and we are taking it out for the first time today. Holy crap, as I was writing this he called and backed out...has to cut the lawn. In reality he is just "whipped"... LOL and luckily won't read this as he doesn't frequent this forum.
Oh well my son and I will still go and he will possibly take his S&W 15/22 which unfortunately is restricted. That's another dumb classification, guess it has a lower that is "too similar" to a real AR. : (
Ammo is cheap and any day shooting is a great day.
Training ..... Exactly. I'm not concerned about the oldest Grandson, but the youngest will be the challenge. I want him to be really comfortable and completely understand how everything works. I think someone that young can absorb the familiarity thing faster practicing with something that looks and feels exactly like the real thing, than playing with a video game console like all his friends. Just my .02.
The expensive .22 cal uppers are intended for practice on the National Match course of fire, not plinking.
I have one of the .22 cal match AR-15 service configurations uppers which I have on a fully tuned lower with match trigger, weights etc. Fired with the wolf “extra” match ammunition or S&K Match, it very closely simulates the weight and feel of the full up match tuned AR15. The scores I fire with it are compatible with those scores I used to fire in the full course of fire (I have been inactive the past few years).
There are three reasons for buying one of these rifles if you are a serious NM service rifle competitor:
1) Expense: The mid level ammunition that allows equivalent accuracy at 50/100 yards to the full 5.56 caliber rifle is a lot less money per shot, less than half actually (reloads). 5,000 rounds of wolf extra match is around 670 dollars or ~13.4 cents per shot, 5.56 match using sierra 77 grain match bullets (excluding the price of brass and reloading equipment) is about 29 cents per shot. With brass, wastage, lube, cleaning media and test loadings the real cost per practice/match round fired is well over 30 cents a round. If you compare firing 3,000 rounds of full bore ammunition against 1,500 rounds of full bore and 2,000 of .22 caliber ammunition you will end up saving a bit of money, which will pay for the upper in less than 4 years of use. If you shoot some cheaper ammunition at 25 yard and 50 ft ranges where the added expense of .22 rimfire match ammunition is not required, you can pay for itself in less then 3 years of use.
2) Ability to shoot more: There are two aspects to this. First is the fact that I can shoot in my backyard and not disturb anyone with standard velocity ammunition, I could not do that with full caliber ammunition. Even if you cannot do that if your neighbors are too close, there are many small bore winter leagues and places you can go shoot small bore that you cannot shot full bore, especially in the dark of winter.
Second most competitive riflemen load their own ammunition and are quite anal about it. Much of the winter’s months are spent doing this. The time to load 1500 to 2,000 rounds of top quality ammunition each year becomes a real pain and takes a lot of time, if one includes the load development and quality testing required. The less ammunition you have to load, the more you can go during those winter months and work on your shooting.
3) Superior training tool (most important). Most competitive shooters do not have a personnel coach to help us train. We must do it all. Without the .22 upper, we have two training tools: a) dryfire and b) firing live ammunition. Most competitive riflemen do both, with many having a ration of dry fired rounds to real rounds at around 2/1. I used to say that the matches were where I tested the techniques I learned in dry fire.
Unfortunately dry fire has its limits. One of the biggest during the winter months is the inability to keep training with the same degree of attention that one brings to bear when actually shooting. That is where the .22 cal rifle comes in. It adds a third intermediary tool, as most riflemen will tell you that the .22 cal rifle is harder to fire well then the full bore rifle. This is primarily due to the longer barrel time, which is about 2.7 to 2.8 times longer then with the full caliber 5.56 rifle. Small errors of follow through that will barely show up with the full bore rifle most definitely show up with the .22 caliber rifle. This means it is very useful practice to use the small bore rifle, to let the shooter detect errors that will not be discovered in either dry fire or fullbore practice. Having this third training tool is of great value to the shooter who is trying to figure out those last errors which make the difference between shooting a 490 and a 495.
In my case I found two areas to improve that I had not detected in years of practice: offhand follow through and consistency of butt placement in my shoulder in the prone stage. While the time required to break down my position and figure out what small errors were causing me to put shots out beyond my call was very frustrating, I was rewarded with ultimately higher scores in real matches.
Though I have not done it I am told by fellows that shoot these conversions at 200 yard matches that the 200 yard matches are close to equivalent to something like shooting at 700 to 800 yards with the full bore rife in terms of having to watch the wind.
Finally, you will not wear out a .22 cal match rifle in 10,000 or even 30,000 rounds of ammunition firing RWA, S&K, Wolf or other brands used by service rifle shooters. The rifles will outlast most owners, or at least their service rifle careers. A well maintained upper would not only same the shooter money, but can be sold to another competitive shooter when done for at least 2/3 of the purchase price.
I really like your thinking. I just want the kids to be aware and to know how things work. Even though I have a PS3 and play Battlefield 3, when they are here they read books, watch movies. No video games If down the road they are interested in going further I have lots of toys they can go further with. Thanks for your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederick303
Just because! I have a S&W M&P 15 AND a S&W M&P15-22. 2 Guns, no parts to misplace or lose. Also have a Colt Frontier Scout in 22 and one in 22mag. More guns is more better!Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveN
I have never been a fan of the .22LR ..... until I picked up a set of 1970's .22Lr semi auto rifles,one Winchester 190 and a Ted Williams 3T. took them out to see if the worked and what fun they were to shoot. To use the AR in .22 would be more fun I'm sure. thanks to all for the great comments it's been informative.
I have two dedicated 22 AR upper's --- for my Rock River lower's. The match grade hammers will break after every 3,000 rounds using the dedicated ceiner and probably the Tactical Solutions bolts --- so you probably need to use mill-spec hammers and extra power hammer springs for proper detonation.
I've had major problems, especially with the Tactical Solutions upper. That is.... premature detonation of a 22 L.R. round, during a empty shell casing stovepipe, causing the rear sides of the shell casing too burst and a bullet squib load stuck in the barrel.
Tactical Solutions, sent me a tougher extractor ---- but the problem still exists.
The other dedicated upper --- a Model "1" from Texas --- has given me bulged rear 22 lr cases, and squib loads.
Conversion units are dangerous, if you allow 22 lr soot to accumulate so bad, that when you shoot a 223 cleaner round thru it --- will possibly crack the the bolt and break the charging handle in half; after detonation.
Maybe you should clean your guns once in a while then...Quote:
Originally Posted by erno86
That appears to be a problem you have in isolation. I've never even heard of that one before...Good one!