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Yes....., to start with. The Indian Army generally followed the pattern of their former British Army heritage until well into the 60's/70's when the old equipment was becoming worn out. Thereafter I would assume that they would have adopted a local pattern of sling or just continued the tacit UK military pattern of using the longer and more versatile Bren sling without the hooks. Certainly in the 70's they were still using vast amounts of UK wartime Bedford, Austin and Commer vehicles
Peval65, I,m with PE regarding the tin, I know it is tempting but leave as is, the many shades are as he says its history, if it was a rusty reck then there is no other option than to re paint etc, I did one recently but was a bit more than just a paint. see link belowQuote:
Originally Posted by PrinzEugen
No 32 scope tin repair/ refinish
The two tone effect normally on a tin is due to the inside not seeing daylight and being handled etc. If you were to T cut a small area then thats your original colour, the mistake I made when trying to get the paint match was using an area on the bottom of the tin...... never crossed my mind regarding fading over time. Yours has three colours as the top of the tin has been painted over to apply the new rifle number. There may just be a chance someone is looking for that tin........
I,ve a theory behind the Indian black paint.... in this case the 5 ltr tin of paint is opened a large quantity of paint is removed from the tin and the rest thinned out, of course everyone then has at least some decent paint to use at home maybe the gate, window bars etc.
I,ve sailed with Indian crews a few times, ( I used to eat their curries, never be far from a toilet though, goes in hot comes out even hotter) there working gear was usually in tatters and had many repairs etc, but paid off the ship in a nice new pair of safety shoes, also a box of soap powder (industrial size) nicely wrapped up with the string carry handle.
Makes you wonder at times but an oiler on my watch many years ago was very well educated I used to ask him why do this, he said the money was very good although to us it was peanuts and at one time he was earning more than his Brother who was a pilot in the Indian Air Force.
I don't think posterity will be any poorer if you choose to restore it. It all depends on how many you have and what you want your rifle to be.
The question is, to what point do you restore it? If you want it as close to 1943 as possible, you get rid of all those ugly Indian additions: non-original "T" stamp, "303B" on the barrel ring (did the Indians really put that on??), restamped "No4 MkI", numbers on the bracket, etc. etc. You'd need strong nerves and a friendly TIG welder.:lol: Fortunately not a choice I've ever had to make!
I'm sure some people would at least pretend to be horrified by the idea, but that's your choice. Do you want a collector or a shooter?
Peval65: Any clear history of use is so rarely encountered with No. 4 rifles (at least in my limited experience) that I would consider it a shame to eliminate the record of Indian usage. The thing could have been present at one or more of the Indo-Pak wars. We all know where it came from originally. I doubt if a cosmetic "restoration" would add to it's abilities as a shooter but it would certainly change the way collectors would look at it and value it. This rifle has some interesting stories to tell- like the bedding method the Indians were testing (and which we know ultimately didn't prove superior). There are lots of reasonably original (as used by the British) T's around. Yours has its own distinct and interesting history. Regards.
Ridolpho
I am with Ridolpho on this keep the lineage endevour to do a good spruce up of the bits and repaint and try to keep the stampings evident and not obliterate them with layers of paint, you know its your rifle and you can do with it what you want and I think your train of action is following the right path. Whatever bits it has is from its service like Peter Laidler has said armourers just grabbed the next new bit and fitted it up as the main thing was to get it out and doing the business not worry about all matching bits and bobs. I had the draws repaired on my T a non standard way by master stock maker Ken Davis (40+ years experience) why! because it is my rifle, wont be sold till I am dead and will go to my son who even now wants the rifle, its all correct (apart from the draws) as far as the wise ones here have said and is referenced in Peters book.
Anyway you have allot of seagulls pecking at your door with honest and solid advice but in the very long run you have the call on what goes on with your T and all people who restore things always try to keep it as original as can be and that entails keeping and preserving all of its journey as that is its history.
I have posted the pics of Kens hand carved masterpiece before, this is his rifle and he hand carved the stock (Did not use a pattern machine as he does not own one all his stocks are one off's) this is what I call a restoration with a twist as he still has the original stock but it was shagged...
Thanks for this info, I will look for a good 1907 sling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
Answering to all the welcome posts regarding the finish....I decided to leave the rifle in the "Indian pattern",...already stripped off that very new black paint.
I believe to change the upper band and front swivel with original ones in better conditions.
About the wood parts I believe to redo just the finish as the actual is really too much gloss and I suspect it was done by the importer too.
The only thing disturbing my mind is that awful obliterated scope number on the top of the buttstock.....but want to keep the stock anyway.
About the tin case I have not decided yet!
I agree with folks recalling the history of this rifle and anyway a complete refurbishment to British pattern is always possible but I want a decent Rifle to shoot and enjoy not a living room piece.
Here in Italy these rifles are very seldom seen ( I know just 2 persons owning it, purchased 20 years ago with the original chest) and I was aware of some problems even though absolutely not an expert of Enfields, so the 650 euro I payed anyway worth itself.
I will overhaule it in the next winter in order to shoot it next spring when the good season will allow to go to a long range outdoor shooting field.
wow, 650 euro's, that is an amazing deal. i doubt there are many (any) here that would turn down your no4T at that price.
Here is some markings and pics after the gloss laquer stripping from the woods.
Maybe someone knows the story behind...
The fore end stock bears the rifle serial, the butt stock not.
Thanks
The SOU on the butt, photo 2 is the marking from 18 Command Workshop at Bovington in Dorset.