All this headspace information

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Originally Posted by Parashooter

Your memory is failing, Mr. Horton. As I reported here, the first test with my Winchester cases was totally dry. Case separated after 10 shots with moderately heavy loads. I consider this acceptable performance - and no oil or other lubricant was involved.

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And you also forgot to tell people the whole story, if I remember correctly you used nylon monofilament string to shim your rims. And my point being nylon string or rubber o-rings do NOT increase bolt thrust as oiling a cartridge case does.

A photo from your posting Parashooter.

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The factory Winchester ammunition I fired in my Enfield with the headspace set at .062 still thinned in the web area by .001 to .002. How many different lot numbers and how many years of testing cases do I need before forming an opinion on the cases I shoot in my Enfield’s?

My gauges do not lie!

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Bindi2

Originally Posted by Bindi2
The dimensions of a battle rifle are and will allways be different to a commercial one the 303 is probably the worst offender, can not that be accepted.

I agree 100 percent, the problem as I see it is not everyone knows this and blames the Enfield rifle for case separations. When reloading the Enfield rifle the construction and quality of your brass cases means everything.
(The British Enfield rifle was never designed to shoot rebellious American ammunition) :rolleyes:

I’m hoping during all these “discussions” (arguing) that at least a few people notice this, my comments here are addressed to the general viewing public. There is a reason I went hunting for all the Enfield manuals and books and that was hoping more people would read them.

The Enfield rifle is a battle rifle designed to take abuse BUT if it was abused before you got it you need to know NOT to abuse it even further. My first Enfield came from Turkey and NEVER had a trained British or Commonwealth armourer even touch it and it needed a “little” work done to it.

You can safely shoot oiled cartridges when fire forming cases as long as you keep the pressures low enough that the bolt thrust is no higher than a normal round. You can also drive your car while text messaging and hope you never crash head on into a brick wall.

I do not oil or grease my Enfield cases and I never will. I also have two new un-issued Enfield’s and the headspace on both these rifles is below .067 and this tells me something.

Originally Posted by Son
BTW, Ed... I scored another thousand HXP's the other day...

P.S. Dear Son, may the fleas of a thousand kangaroos infest your crouch. :D

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Originally Posted by Edward Horton

And you also forgot to tell people the whole story, if I remember correctly you used nylon monofilament string to shim your rims. And my point being nylon string or rubber o-rings do NOT increase bolt thrust as oiling a cartridge case does.

A photo from your posting Parashooter.

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Seems you're confused again, Mr. Horton. The Winchester cases in that test never wore a shim or spacer of any kind. I suspect you're presuming that showing folks about spacers means I habitually use them myself. Not true! The spacers are useful during fireforming when the rifle's headspace is fairly generous and/or the cartridge rims are abnormally thin. With good headspace and normal rims, there's little need for them. In the "Headspace 101" post, the concept is stated as simply as I can manage -

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"When you fire a new case for the first time, use an improvised spacer ahead of the rim - anything from a precision metal washer to dental floss can work to hold the the cartridge head firmly against the bolt face and eliminate or reduce stretch even if head clearance is significant. Another way of accomplishing the same end is to use a bullet seated out far enough to jam into the lands, "headspacing" on the bullet instead of the case. Such techniques are useful only if the rifle has excess headspace. With normal headspace, initial stretch isn't enough to worry about."

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Really, Ed, I've nothing to hide and no agenda other than encouraging people to do some original thinking, approach "authority" with healthy skepticism, and question their preconceptions.

Parashooter

Ed Novak told me once to never talk about headspace in Enfield forums because so many people became so upset about the topic. Thinking back I might have been upset once or twice on this subject and maybe just once might have foamed at the mouth a little. On the bright side I have never bitten anyone or given anyone rabies in any forum.

I wrote the following about headspace at ParallaxBills right after your “Headspace 101” became a sticky with a little tongue and cheek humor below.

What does SAAMI mean?


The Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute (SAAMI) is an association of the nation’s leading manufacturers of firearms, ammunition and components.

SAAMI was founded in 1926 at the request of the Federal Government and tasked with:

1. Creating and publishing industry standards for safety, interchangeability, reliability and quality
2. Coordinating technical data
3. Promoting safe and responsible firearms use

This creates a multitude of problems for the British .303 rifles in the United States, the Enfield rifle was designed before 1926 and the Federal Government can’t tell the British what to. The last time we did tell the British what to do, they got mad and burned Washington DC to the ground in 1812.

To further agitate the American rebels the British took our game of Football, changed the rules and called it Rugby. Then to add insult to injury the British and Commonwealth Nations refused to wear protective head gear when playing football. Ditto Baseball and Cricket and we in turn refused to play the silly game of Soccer.

By 1926 the tension had reached a fever pitch and British spies fed misinformation to the fledgling SAAMI and gave them the wrong chamber dimensions for the .303 cartridge. By the start of WWII the British not wishing to anger the United States decided not to tell the U.S. about the false chamber dimensions so instead the British started making their .303 cases thicker to withstand the looser chamber dimensions in our US made Savage-Enfield’s.

By this time Col. Hatcher had already published his “Hatchers Note Book” and his essays on headspace which the American public took as Gospel. But what the American public failed to realize was Hatcher’s headspace testing was done with a Mauser type bolt action with a claw extractor which held the case against the bolt face.

Some time after WWII surplus British Enfield’s started entering the US, and the Enfield headspace debate started………

The only advice I can give any of you as an American is this, if you don’t play Rugby but like the Enfield rifle, the SAAMI who decide how thick to make your American cases recommends a headspace setting of .064 GO to .067 NO-GO.

To further complicate the issue an unknown Australian author by the name of Ian Skennerton who wrote a little known book called “The Enfield Story” and a even lesser known “Accurizing and Shooting Lee-Enfield’s” recommends setting your headspace at “approximately .003 three thousandths" over rim thickness.

Then to further confuse the U.S., NAFTA and Pay-Pal an Ex-Canadian Armourer by the name of Stephen Redgwell who probably played Ice Hockey, recommends SAAMI standards for headspace for the Enfield rifle. Sadly many discount Mr. Redgwell’s statements because the Montreal Expos moved to Washington D.C..

I myself have never been confused about headspace, I always remembered what an upper classman told me in High School “The tight ones are the best ones”.

I decided to measure the rim thickness of two batches of winchester brass I bought about five years apart. The headstamp is w-w super 303 british.

The first batch bought in 2001. Some rims varied in thickness on each case from .054 to .061. More rims varied from .057 to .060 and .057 to .063. Most rims varied from .058 to .062.

The other batch purchase in 2005 or there abouts most were .060 +/- .001.
The worst was .058 to .061 and the best was .060 to .0605.

It seems to me a rubber "o" ring would be better to use then a monofilament because the "o" ring can fill in broader variations in a individual case rim thinkness then a monofilament could.

Guys, I'm still trying to learn, but the online sniping makes it dangerous to stick one's head above the keyboard.
The story so far:
1) Lubricating cases is a no-no-no, even for reduced fire-forming loads.
2) Holding the base against the bolt face for fire-forming is a good idea.
3) Anyone who checks his Enfield by using SAAMI gauges has only himself to blame.
4) A head clearance of max. 0.003" would be desirable.
5) But to hold that, you're going to have to measure the rim thickness.

OK so far? Or have I missed something important amidst the flak?

Patrick

I would like to comment on your item number 3.

“3) Anyone who checks his Enfield by using SAAMI gauges has only himself to blame.”

I have three headspace gauges, a .064, .067 and a .074 and my .067 always tells me a story every time I’m checking headspace on a possible new Enfield purchase.

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After proof firing the Enfield rifle was checked with a .067 headspace gauge, if the bolt closed on the .067 gauge the Enfield “failed” proof testing for having too much set back of the bolt head and bolt lugs.

This tells me a like new Enfield should have a headspace setting of “less” than .067, I also have two new un-issued Enfield’s and both of these have a headspace setting of less than .067.

British military headspace for the Enfield rifle is .064 minimum and .074 maximum.

Canadian headspace for the No.4 Enfield from their 2002 military manual are as follows:

.064 Minimum
.070 Maximum
.074 Field Maximum

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Therefore headspace is governed by “who” is holding the Enfield rifle and what makes them happy.

I’m a civilian and not governed by military regulations and “MY” shooter Enfield below has the bolt resting on the .064 gauge and the headspace is set at approximately .003 over my rim thickness for shooting American ammunition with thin rims and a skinny base diameter.
(No oil or grease in chamber and o-rings not used for fire forming)

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Fire forming cases with the rubber o-ring method, makes headspace even over .074 meaningless if good cases are used. (Your item number 2) ;)

Patrick
1] yes
2] yes
3] yes
4] But not necessary even target shooting, within specs on the closer side.
5] We did but used [4] instead.
6] Use the heavest cases 1st or the best quality brass 2nd. They could be equal. Some cases are good others are just rubbish.
7] Use a Neck sizing collet die.
8] F/S only enough to chamber. Do not use a SAAMI sized F/S die if you have a generous chamber case life will suffer.

Keep your head up or at least your hand the knowledge will come the B/S will float away.

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"OK so far? Or have I missed something important amidst the flak?"


If the flak bothers you stay above 10,000 feet in these forums.
(You never know who’s manning the guns or greasing and oiling the cases) :eek:

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