german marked SMLE (real or fake?)

Ok, good people I think I have finally remembered where I have seen what made the backwards Eagle ( in the wood ) . Sorry it took so long but my one remaining brain cell gets over loaded easy. I think the backwards eagle was produced by using a type of nazi party lapel pin. It looks the right size and type of image. If the label pin was used to make an impressed image it would produce a reverse image. Un fortunately my client that collect this type of German memorabilia is no longer in the area to double check with.

The stamp on the metal is the correct way around.

An interesting article but what's a bit worrying, but easily rectified, is that some forumers clearly have no real idea about what the term FTR really indicates when it's attached to or engraved on your rifle. So after this article reaches a conclusion, I'll do a bit of homework and speak to those who know a lot more than me and do a write up about exactly what the FTR programmes really mean, what they do and what it means to your FTR'd rifle. I can only speak for the big UK Military/Ministry of Supply programmes at Fazakerley and Enfield (but BSA broadly followed suit) and what happened at Lithgow during my time in Australia and the Army there and abroad.

But, be advised that it won't include phrases like '.......well, he probably left it off.....' or '........... maybe the storeman/examiner/out inspctor/ machine shop supervisor etc etc was feeling tired that day'.

As a collector, I would certainly LOVE for this rifle of Superbee's to be the real thing, but, after reading all of the opinions and speculations, it just doesn't seem probable. Even with keeping in mind that anything IS quite possible in regard to millsurp collecting, there are some things about this particular rifle that just don't logically fit in place.

Lets do a short recap of the information and see where it lands.

The rifle in question was said to posses the markings " FTR MA/52 " This is a unmistakable mark for a rifle having been FTR'd in Australia in 1952. No matter where else in the whole world this rifle has been, we have positive proof it had been in Australia by 1952.

The rifle in question possesses yellow paint on the nose cap. This clearly indicates the rifle having been involved with the cadet forces AFTER the FTR. Mr. Ladler has given his assessment of what a FTR entails ( with more to come ) which indicates the probability of the German markings surviving a FTR to be extremely unlikely.

We have testimony from respected, knowledgeable members of the K98 boards regarding the authenticity of the German markings and the collective results show them to be consistent with known forged markings, in the wrong place and apparently, backwards. As I have stated before, to disregard the statements of the K98 folks would be the same as to disregard any statement our own trusted Enfield experts would have posted if the roles were reversed. As rough as some of the posting may appear, we must try not to read any emotion in them and just read the information given.

We have a lot of speculation. Some are not able to see why such forgery would be undertaken in the first place, others seem to feel the mere fact that Germany did capture, mark and issue allied weapons justifies this rifles authenticity while still others have a personal stake in the the reputation of the seller, which at the very least is extremely noble, but unfortunately, lacks concrete proof.

As a collector, I can assure you that I would, without giving it a second thought, pay quite a premium to possess such a rifle. That is part of what collecting is all about. Unfortunately, there are people out there who are very aware of this fact and will go to some pretty extended efforts to exploit this. The fact that this doesn't make much sense to most people doesn't change this fact, It is a fact and it does happen and I have been victim of this very practice myself. I am sure any collector here has been aware of the German markings nightmare that has been going on for quite a long time. Bottom line, can we assume this rifle is authentic because it appears illogical to undertake such forgery ? or, can we assume this rifle is a fake given the degree of forgery that is known to exist ?

I think I can say that everyone here is aware that Germany did in fact capture, mark and issue weapons to their troops, agreed? That has never been contested in any of the previous postings and bearhunter has posted an excellent listing of information regarding this practice but as valuable a piece of information this may be, does it support the validity of this particular rifle ?

So, this leaves us with three probable time frames the German markings could have been applied. 1, In Germany 2, the time between the rifle being sold out of service to the time the rifle was collected to be exported and 3, somewhere between the time the rifle arrived at the importers and collected by the distributor. I arrived at these conclusions by 1- the obvious, 2- Mr. Ladler, regarding the FTR procedure and 3- the statements provided by enfield303 and bearhunter regarding the character of the seller.

If we remove all of the emotion, hopes and desires of what we all would really like this rifle to be.... the bare facts that remain leave us no choice about the probability of what this rifle is.

I am very sorry Superbee, I just think you should get your money back on this one.

A 15yr old cadet could have done it because he thought he was cool or some other reason

I think most understand what FTR means however the question is was it done perfectly EVERY time? Again the word NEVER can enter into the equation and I think what happened during wartime will be different than what happens in peacetime. Yes the gun was to be restored to perfect military specifications, was it done everytime, I doubt it after all if I ever found a gun like superbee had I would gladly pass it thru just to cause a stir down the road. I have always thought the Aussies had a great sense of humour so maybe this guy did and has been laughing for years. Next is the quality of work, there are different standards as how perfect something must be between the different branches of the military. I go back to a good friend that was in the Air Force and in their hanger was probably the best machinist he had ever seen, this guy did amazing, perfect work. The machinist in question was transfered and the next machinist was from a different branch of the military ( we had amalgamated the branches ) and my friend infered that the new machinist did work that was good enough, whereas aircraft just won't stay in the air with good enough work. (No disrespect meant to anyone). I know the majority of posts say the gun is a fake however I think there is a chance it may be genuine and my reasoning is too many people are using the word or thought...NEVER.. Think about it, hundreds of thousands of weapons were captured and marked by the Germans and not even one Enfield slipped thru??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

I think most understand what FTR means however the question is was it done perfectly EVERY time? Again the word NEVER can enter into the equation and I think what happened during wartime will be different than what happens in peacetime. Yes the gun was to be restored to perfect military specifications, was it done everytime, I doubt it after all if I ever found a gun like superbee had I would gladly pass it thru just to cause a stir down the road. I have always thought the Aussies had a great sense of humour so maybe this guy did and has been laughing for years. Next is the quality of work, there are different standards as how perfect something must be between the different branches of the military. I go back to a good friend that was in the Air Force and in their hanger was probably the best machinist he had ever seen, this guy did amazing, perfect work. The machinist in question was transfered and the next machinist was from a different branch of the military ( we had amalgamated the branches ) and my friend infered that the new machinist did work that was good enough, whereas aircraft just won't stay in the air with good enough work. (No disrespect meant to anyone). I know the majority of posts say the gun is a fake however I think there is a chance it may be genuine and my reasoning is too many people are using the word or thought...NEVER.. Think about it, hundreds of thousands of weapons were captured and marked by the Germans and not even one Enfield slipped thru??

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Have I got a bridge to sell you.

I agree with SpikeDD about a lot of what he has said. Emotion is not an asset here, and speculation really isn't either. Although I am as guilty as almost any for speculating, that comes from a bit of knowledge of the system as much as anything I know about the rifles in general. I think a few more details are needed to take us any further...

If Superbee is willing to participate, and there is not to be any negative comments if he isn't... (even answer by PM if you like)
I would like to ask a question or two specifically about the rifle.
Is the FTR marking on the left side of the butt socket?
Is the rifle serial number present on the foreend? Wood type? EFD marked?
Check the date on the barrel to confirm if it is actually the original, or if it was a re-numbered replacement? Can we see pictures of the serial number stamps on barrel and receiver and bolt?
What type of finish is on the rifle's metalwork, and how good is that finish?
Does the finish look damaged where the eagle is stamped on the receiver? (I use a high-res macro shot blown up to get the best view of very fine detail)
Was there any grease under the woodwork?

I think we are generally in agreement that the FTR may hold the key to this. Trying to establish if it is unaltered since FTR is very important to the case, either way.

My verdict after years as a rather serious Enfield AND K98k collector: Fake.

The waffenampts are all wrong AND their placement does not follow any of the known Waffenampt inspected capture rifles. Certainly there would NEVER be a receiver ring firing proof.

It's fake. The seller offered a refund. Take advantage of it.

My condolences that it isn't what the OP thought it was.

I saw an identical rifle at the Regina Gunshow about 4 years back. It had the yellow markings, the FTR, and the German markings stamped into the wood. The seller had not even noticed the markings, so they were not there for his profit. His price was reasonable. I passed, as it was just too suspicious a chain to have the FTR and the German markings. I posed the question on gunnutz site back then, and the consensus was "fake". Apparently there were a couple of guys in Southern Ontario who liked to spruce up their rifles for resale.